I don't prove negatives. If you claim there was a world wide census during the time of Mark Anthony that required people to report to their birthplace provide the proof. Did you look at any of the many footnoted reference I asked you to look at. And of course the answer is no.
Irenaeus' writings were foundational for the nicene creed, even using his terminology, 'very God of very God'. Nobody claimed he was at that council. Beliefs abound, in the world of man. But the first compilation of the current NT canon was Athanasius. Beliefs, speculations, and opinions abound. Facts are plentiful, regarding the early church era, but the conclusions and implications vary with agenda snd interpretation. I see 'preservation of orthodoxy' as the goal and agenda of the councils, the apologists, and the early church fathers. They accomplished that goal, and affirmed a useful, valid canon of NT manuscripts. They are congruent with the teachings of Jesus, and deliver the gospel message with clarity and accuracy. I do not see a 'split from Judaism' as anything but the rejection of Jesus from orthodox Judaism. Christians met secretly, not in synagogues, and were persecuted by both the romans and the jews up to Constantine, who merely legalized open expressions of Christian faith. Christianity grew faster among the gentiles, and soon left Jewish dominance. So even rhe 'split' was a gradual thing, as fewer Jews embraced Jesus as the messiah, and more gentiles did. That is true to this day.
ah yes, the usual hand waiving away of evidence that conflicts with your dogma. I see nothing has changed.
So should I print out the references from scholars which you call links, put the printouts in a box, and mail them to you? You can't debate because all you have is your Bible, circular logic, and claims that can't be proven at all. Funny how none of you people in the present time can call down fire like Elijah did to prove God. Now call down some fire and prove me wrong.
You don't debate. When presented with an argument and evidence which completely refutes your position, you hand waive it away and say "nuh uh". then a few posts later, you claim nobody has given you any evidence or arguments. And you get called on this in every thread you're in. It's hilarious.
Yes, I think that for the western world, it was very important, a part of the very fabric of western civ. The first church, the RCC, their bibles were written in latin, and later on, only academics or priests could read it, and christians got their biblical info from the priests. Indeed my mom used to get rid of bible salesmen in the 50s, by telling the guy that we were catholics and of course, did not read the bible, personally. Spreading this religion was left up to the church, and not dependent upon the bible, that is, people reading it for themselves. Oh, since God did not actually personally write that book, he would have been dishonest to sign it. ha ha Supposedly god inspired lowly human beings to do the work of writing the numerous books in that bible. And humans being human, probably added what they wanted to, and then said, god told me to do it. I always figured the creator of the universe would not have trusted imperfect man, in putting together a book of rules and truth. He would have chosen a different way, like downloads from Himself to the brain of man. With no confusion of interpretation.
An early heresy in the early church was from Marcion of Sinope, ~ad 85-160 Marcion did not like the OT God of judgement and physical intervention in human affairs, and preferred a spiritualizing of Jesus, in the gnostic tradition. His canon motivated the early church to come to grips with the many deceptions, apocryphal writings, and heresies that threatened the purity of the Gospel message. 1. Marcion removed all references to the old testament. 2. His canon included edited versions of Luke, and some of the letters. His canon had the 'Evangelicon', and the 'Apostolikon,' as the only acceptable scriptures. 3. His original writings are lost, and we have only references and corrections from others to put together his theology, like Tertullian's 'Adversus Marcionem', (Against Marcion). 4. Heresies, distortions, and departures from orthodox Christianity was as common then as now. 5. Historical, orthodox Christianity, has strived to protect and preserve the scriptures, not revise them for expediency. Difficult passages are embraced, not edited out. 6. After much debate, deliberation, and precedence following, the early church arrived at a consensus on a Canon, and it has remained to this day, as the defining standard of Christian orthodoxy. 7. The only evidence of Marcion's beliefs come from contemporaries who opposed and disputed his teachings as heretical. Any modern day theory about Marcionites is speculative.
Very few of the books of scripture claim Divine Authorship, or even inspiration. Revelations is the only NT book that claims that. People afterward revered the individual books as significant records of Jesus, His teachings, and life. Those people believe in Divine Inspiration, with various levels of involvement. Belief in Divine Inspiration of the scriptures is not a prerequisite for salvation, in any orthodox historical creed. Belief in the AUTHORITY of the scriptures, in matters of faith, theology, and practice, are. Everyone believes something, about God. Lots of people like to presume they could do a better job.
Better than the God of the Bible? Sure. Anyone could. Maybe just start by never ordering the death penalty for badmouthing me or for following a different God. Or at least abstain from ordering infanticide.
Yes, there are probably several humans who would have done things differently, and would have been more intelligent than the god portrayed by the bible. And that is why, I don't place much stock in the god as portrayed by man, in the bible. That god is the creation of the mind of man, IMO. Other men from other cultures came up with their own creations in regards to their gods. We have always had wonderful imagination. Trouble arises when we take the imagination to be reality. I don't take the god of the bible, of the OT, seriously. Do you? That god belongs in a fairy tale. The creator of this universe, the intelligence involved makes the god of the bible look like a joke and does this creator no justice whatsoever! IMO, our minds cannot grasp the creator. Our attempts read like some fairy tale.
A trivia contest! How fun! I'll not jump in on this one, to challenge other readers. But really. You don't need the snarky little jabs. We know how you feel. Just say the bible. Unless you would like others to preface their use with, 'the most profound, enlightened, powerful book in the history of humanity!'
What exactly do you do other than repeat unproven claims based on the Bible (fairy tales) and circular logic?
OK. I just wanted to point out that the development of Christianity including the gradual split from Judaism took place over a period of a few hundred years. My reference to Nicea was more as an end point of a long period of development. That period included times when Judaism and Christianity shared the same temples. Christianity didn't occur at a single point in time - in the sense of, say, Mohammad who presented a new revelation that continued unchanged from its original presentation. One can certainly point to the birth of Jesus as a date, but the religion developed over a significant period including after his death. Persecution: Rome had its own government and religious pantheon and considered both Christians and Jews as a relatively indistinguishable rabble that represented various degrees of threat. Claiming that Christians were persecuted or that Jews were persecuted just doesn't mean much if you ask me. Of COURSE members of some different religion would be persecuted. Mohammed was actually under major military attack. Zoroastrians weren't liked, either. There were people at the time that didn't accept the idea of religious pluralism and were suspicious of organization being a potential threat to government. Look at us today. We as a nation are HAPPY with not just persecution, but with the ethnic cleansing of West Bank even as we like to claim that rule of law, representation by the people and religious pluralism are our fundamental precepts - that humans are instilled in fundamental human rights that are worth dying for!! One doesn't have to go back to our slaughter of first peoples to find our human trait of justifying persecution.
..so you believe.. But it seems a bit cocky, for a finite, mortal soul, easily deceived, filled with delusions of grandeur, to think they are smarter than the omnipotent, omnipresent, all knowing Creator of the universe. ..but then, that defines us humans pretty well, and shows us why we need a Savior. It also reveals progressive Indoctrination. The phony caricatures about, 'the God of the Bible!', are just that: caricatures. The actual, Living God Whose story line was recorded in the biblical texts is nothing like the progressive phony narratives. I would suggest a careful reconsideration of your information base. Clinging to lies and caricatures, for your perceptions about God, may result in a great disappointment, when the Truth is revealed to all. ..better to find out now, with an open mind and soul, than discover your error when it is too late.
The only other option is to believe that murdering infants and murdering people for their speech and for their beliefs is morally permissable. So you are going to either have to contradict your claims here or contradict your claims in your morality thread. Which is it? One minute you say was have an awareness of absolute morality and the next you declare it hubris to think we have moral awareness at all.
It is obvious what i do: 1. I offer intelligent, knowledgeable discussion. 2. I demonstrate great patience in the face of overt hostility and bigotry. 3. My reasoning is impeccable. Nobody pecks my arguments. 4. I provide a historical perspective, that conflicts with progressive Indoctrination. 5. I provide eloquence and wit, in a witless, trite environment. 6. I bring the Truth, for those who seek it. It is uncomfortable, for some, which explains the hostility and anger my simple words elicit. 7. I fill in the hours, while waiting to die. What do you do?
? I dispute this. Any 'split' from Judaism and the first disciples was immediate. The Judaic status quo did not accept Jesus as the Messiah. A few leading jews did, but they were not singing in the choir, together. Of course it did. The book of acts chronicles the 'movement', from fearful, defeated followers, hiding from the authorities, to fearless, Spirit Filled, bold witnesses, proclaiming the Message of Salvation, and igniting the spark that would Change the world. You have likely not been persecuted for your beliefs. Tell the millions of Jews, Christians, and others, just in the last century, that their persecution didn't mean much. No, man's inhumanity to man is a constant. Christianity is a Solution to that human evil, but we are retreating from that worldview, and returning to the dark ages, and jungle law. Enlightenment principles are nearly forgotten and abandoned, by the new religion of Progressivism.
..and the bigger trouble comes when we cannot distinguish imagination from reality. How can you be certain that your beliefs are not just 'imaginations!', if the human animal is so predisposed to delusion, as you observe? I do. ..because i have thoroughly read and studied this book, that contains the Revelation of God, to man. Smarter people than either of us have recognized the wealth of wisdom and insight in this compilation. Snarky dismissals only reveal bigotry and hostile Indoctrination, not experiential knowledge of the texts. IOW, those who have actually read and studied the bible are much better equipped to judge, than those who get second hand smears and ridicule from competing religionists. 1. The earliest books, like Genesis, are not science references. They relay the basic facts, with little explanation as to 'how'. 2. 'our minds cannot grasp the creator'.. agreed. ..neither can we judge Him, or presume to know better. 3. The 'Bible!' is a chronology.. a timeline of events, that explain the life of man, on this planet. It is timeless and should be read with understanding of the writer, the time, and the intent of the message. It is what it is, and should not be expected to be anything else.
I continue to study the most fascinating collection of Books ever written, I will never be able to extract all the gems of wisdom from it's many layers of meaning! Good Morning Brothers and Sisters!
"For more than a thousand years the BIBLE, collectively taken, has gone hand in hand with civilization, science, law --in short, with the moral and intellectual cultivation of the species, always supporting and often leading the way. ~Samuel Taylor Coleridge "The most learned, acute, and diligent student cannot, in the longest life, obtain an entire knowledge of the BIBLE. The more deeply he works the mine, the richer and more abundant he finds the ore." ~Sir Walter Scott
