Amen. It seems easy enough to note that the Bible is about duty, not rights. God didn't lecture man concerning how man's rights were of importance. We got lectured on our duty to the gods - by religion after religion throughout history.
Post 50 continues to shred the nonsense claim that the founders based the founding principles on "Christianity". Agree with your post as well - good points. There is one principle - while not unique to the Bible - is found in the teachings of Jesus. In fact it was the rock on which Jesus based his teachings. The "Golden Rule" - do unto others as you would have done to you. Jesus restates this rule a number of ways - love neighbor as self, Judge not lest you be judged, take log out of own eye before trying to pick speck out of brothers, Let ye who is without sin cast the first rock. One of the very sad and pathetic aspects of Christianity is general is that this rule is neither emphasized nor followed. Jesus did not invent this rule - this rule can be found at least as far back as Hammurabi - 1800 BC. Buddha expounded on this rule as did Confucius. Heck - it is even found in the Quran - but of course not followed by Muslims in general. This rule is the basis for the "social contract" - construct by which the people give some authority power to punish.
If you wish to debate points made, please do so, without the gratuitous ad hominem. Otherwise, i have no desire to engage.
The bible is not constrained to be limited by these definitions. It addresses the human experience much more broadly than this implies. It is NOT a rule book, but a mine of Truth, regarding the human animal, God, purpose, morality, and destiny. The more one digs in this Mine, the more ore of wisdom and unfolded mysteries of the universe are revealed. Human equality, Natural Law, self rule, following conscience, rather than human edicts.. these and many more principles from the reformation and the Enlightenment came DIRECTLY from biblical principles, and most philosophers of those eras credited it so. The American Experiment, grounded firmly in the Enlightenment, was a logical conclusion of those principles, and the founders regularly and wholeheartedly credited biblical principles as the Source of Inspiration for America. It is revisionism, from anti-christian deceivers or deceived, who distort history and present an anti-christian caricature of the founders. They were not all bible thumping Christians, but they respected and esteemed the scriptures, and credited it for many of the founding principles.
Early on in the first Bible thread, i posted this: A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education. ~Theodore Roosevelt I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man. All the good from The Savior of the world is communicated to us through this Book. ~Abraham Lincoln As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see. ~Benjamin Franklin The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses. ~Thomas Jefferson I picked thes quotes for a reason.. none of these famous, influential Americans were Christians. They saw the wisdom and virtue of biblical precepts as positives for a society, and were admirers of the bible and Christianity, as a beacon of Truth, Freedom, and Civilization. Contrast that now, to the anti-christian sentiment that pervades the culture. Instead of esteeming the bible, Jesus, and Christian principles, they are mocked, distorted, caricatured, and despised. America is in the grip of post Christian decline, and the departure from the principles upon which She was founded has not been a positive for society. It is why you almost always see anti Christian and anti American venom from the same source. The Indoctrination of revisionist history, mandated science, and false narratives, promote the anti Christian, anti American ideology that pervades the culture.
I submit that wise and learned people who were nearer to the American Founding are better sources of Truth than revisionist claptrap from hostile, bigoted, anti-christian progressives, steeped in propaganda and Indoctrinated with progressive ideology. "The BIBLE holds up before us ideals that are within sight of the weakest and the lowliest, and yet so high that the best and the noblest are kept with their faces turned ever upward. It carries the call of the Saviour to the remotest corners of the earth; on its pages are written the assurances of the present and our hopes for the future" ~William Jennings Bryan "The BIBLE is one of the greatest blessings bestowed by God on the children of men -- It has God for its Author, Salvation for its end, and Truth without any mixture for its matter. -- It is all pure, all sincere; nothing too much; nothing wanting" ~John Locke "I consider an intimate knowledge of the BIBLE an indispensable quality of a well educated man" ~Dr. Robert Milikan "Of the many influences that have shaped the United States into a distinctive nation and people, none may be said to be more fundamental and enduring than the BIBLE" ~Ronald Reagan All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the BIBLE" ~Noah Webster America has more towns named after Bible towns than anywhere in the world. The Bible has often significantly impacted the names Americans have given their children. In the early years of America, most children were named Jeremiah, Abigail, John, Josiah, Peter, Sarah, Paul, or Elizabeth.Today, many of these Bible names are making a comeback. In fact, of the top 50 names given to girls in America in 2005, 14 are Bible names. Of the top 50 names given to boys, 25 are Bible names. ~Dr. Woodrow Kroll The influence of the Bible is worldwide. Its mighty power has affected every department of human activity. The contents of the Scriptures have supplied themes for the greatest poets, artists and musicians which the world has yet produced, and have been the mightiest factor of all in shaping the moral progress of the race. ~Arthur Pink I will confess that the majesty of the Scriptures strikes me with admiration, as the purity of the gospel has its influence on my heart. Peruse the works of our philosophers, with all their pomp of diction: how contemptible are they, compared with the Scriptures! Is it possible that a book at once so simple and so sublime should be merely the work of man? Is it possible that the sacred personage whose name it records should be himself a mere man? What sweetness, what purity, in his manner! What sublimity in his maxims! What profound wisdom in his discourses! Where is the man, where the philosopher, who could so live and so die without weakness and without ostentation? If the life and death of Socrates were those of a sage, the life and death of Jesus were those of a God. ~Jean Jacques Rousseau
There was no ad hom. Learn what the terms you use mean and learn what the definition of fallacy is. There is nothing false in anything I stated. Your claims in relation to the founding fathers are wrong .. and this was demonstrated in my post. Instead defending your perspective (or God forbid correcting your errant perspective) you choose to ignore information that conflicts with your beliefs and and demonize the messenger. Pathetic.
Regarding the influence of the bible in the American Experiment: The Bible and its teachings helped form the basis for the Founding Fathers' abiding belief in the inalienable rights of the individual, rights which they found implicit in the Bible's teachings of the inherent worth and dignity of each individual. This same sense of man patterned the convictions of those who framed the English system of law inherited by our own Nation, as well as the ideals set forth in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. - Ronald Reagan "The BIBLE is the Rock upon which this Republic rests" ~Andrew Jackson "Whereas, the Senate of the United States devoutly recognizing the Supreme Authority and just Government of Almighty God in all the affairs of men and of nations, has, by a resolution; requested the President to designate and set apart a day for national prayer and humiliation: And whereas, it is the duty of nations as well as of men to own their dependence upon the power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions in humble sorrow yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon, and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history: that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord ... " ~Abraham Lincoln "The more profoundly we study this wonderful Book (the BIBLE), and the more closely we observe its divine precepts, the better citizens we will become and the higher will be our destiny as a nation" ~William McKinley "It is necessary for the welfare of the nation that men's lives be based on the principles of the BIBLE." ~Theodore Roosevelt "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the BIBLE" ~George Washington If we abide by the principles taught in the BIBLE, our country will go on prospering and to prosper; but if we and our posterity neglect its instructions and authority, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us and bury all our glory in profound obscurity" ~Daniel Webster I submit that there is more credibility from learned and famous presidents, the founders, and their contemporaries, regarding the significance and influence of the bible in the American Experiment, than revisionist propaganda from contemporary, anti-christian bigots who only smear and distort the actual history and basis of this nation.
References to the nature of man and the requirements that derive from that nature did not come from the Bible. They came from natural law and the advent of secular and representative government that started well before America. The theme of the Bible is man's duty to God, not the Bill of Rights.
You can believe whatever you wish.. But many among the founders, and historians since, will disagree.
I have NEVER EVER doubted that our founders believed in God. Like with science, brilliant people can believe in God and still respond logically to the universe around us. And, I don't see a substantial argument that our concept of rights is derived from some place other than natural law and the long process of developing SECULAR government that began before America's existence.
There are large numbers among us whose religion is their lense onto our entire universe. So, we have people who strongly believe evolution is a direct assault on Christianity, too.
Maybe now some people will begin to understand how reprehensible it is to post the Ten Commandments anywhere near a courthouse. The Bible is a terrible legal and moral guide. About the only thing the Bible got right was to condemn murder, though it also had plenty of condoned murder to offset that, as seen right here. Its record on rape, slavery and human rights in general is abysmal by any modern standard, especially in the Old Testament. The NT was probably only as progressive as it was thanks to Roman influence, and perhaps Hellenistic and other newer influences that had come along since the OT traditions had been laid down.
..and, the concept of Natural Law requires Someone to 'endow' said rights as Jefferson said, *We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights* Without Someone to 'endow' these rights, where do they come from?
No, the reference to "creator" is no more than a reference to nature. The rights derive from the requirements of humans. We are not like ants or bees that thrive by having worker classes. Humans have a well developed sense of justice. Etc., etc.
The problem is that the idiots who want to post the Ten Commandments all over the place don't have a clue as to what the real Ten Commandments are.
This are not the real Ten Commandments although several of them are part of the real Ten Commandments. The real Ten Commandments are found in Exodus 34:11-28. All of the biblical stories are based on them and the miracles are based on Exodus 34:10. Murder is not against the Ten Commandments.
I would say that EVERYONE has a 'worldview, religion, or philisophical beliefs that are their 'lens' through which they view the world. Obviously, atheism is your lens. How do you differentiate 'Christians!' from the rest of humanity, in that regard? And of course, with any competing worldview, the antithesis is seen as an 'assault!' Atheists see 'Christianity!' as an assault on 'science!', do they not? It is a phony caricature, that 'atheists have science! Christians have religion!', but that mantra is repeated constantly until people believe it. How does nature endow one with inalienable rights? Or establish Natural Law? Or instill a conscience, or morality? No, the Enlightenment philosophers, almost to a man, believed in a Creator, Who instilled these traits. They were not all bible thumping Christians, but they saw a Divine Endowment of Rights, Law, and self evident truths. Many were Deists. Some opposed Christianity. But they saw the BASIS for Rights, Equality, and Natural Law, as having Divine Authorship.
Locke? "The BIBLE is one of the greatest blessings bestowed by God on the children of men -- It has God for its Author, Salvation for its end, and Truth without any mixture for its matter. -- It is all pure, all sincere; nothing too much; nothing wanting" ~John Locke Rousseau? I will confess that the majesty of the Scriptures strikes me with admiration, as the purity of the gospel has its influence on my heart. Peruse the works of our philosophers, with all their pomp of diction: how contemptible are they, compared with the Scriptures! Is it possible that a book at once so simple and so sublime should be merely the work of man? Is it possible that the sacred personage whose name it records should be himself a mere man? What sweetness, what purity, in his manner! What sublimity in his maxims! What profound wisdom in his discourses! Where is the man, where the philosopher, who could so live and so die without weakness and without ostentation? If the life and death of Socrates were those of a sage, the life and death of Jesus were those of a God. ~Jean Jacques Rousseau Need more? The Enlightenment philosophers OVERWHELMINGLY credited the bible with the principles that inspired the Enlightenment. It is anti-christian, revisionist history, from bigoted indoctrinees that purports otherwise.
Anecdotal BS is not an argument for much. Despite how much you desperately want to believe the nonsense you spout - such as "no morals out of natural law" - The Founders and Historians would laugh you out of the room for such a claim. What is worse is that when you are shown how false this claim is - as has been done in posts in this thread - you go running to the playground to stick your head deep in the sandbox of denial - only to pop up latter and re-post the same nonsense as if it had not already been refuted. To make a mistake is only human - to refuse correction however is the mark of a (??) From Proverbs
I said no such thing. ..just the opposite, in fact. Natural Law and morality are very nearly the same thing. You don't address anything i actually say, but straw men of your own construction, which you attack with righteous indignation. Why misquote me, or distort my posts? I attribute it to hostility and religious bigotry, a common practice in these forums. Some can only rage and vent their anti-christian hostility, and avoid reasoning and civil discussion like the plague. ..probably better if we avoid each other's posts.. I'll leave you the last word, if you like..
You said this: The above implies that the morals that arise out of natural law do so on the basis of belief in some creator. This is false and shows that you do not know much about the enlightenment thinkers or the ideology of the founders or Classical Liberalism. As said previously - I have written papers on this topic and if you would like I can explain how the morals arose on a completely secular basis - as per the founders/enlightenment thinkers. I realize you are not interested in listening to anything that conflicts made up narrative so I will leave it at that and save a few skin cells.
Good. Since you rely heavily on ad hom, straw men, distortions, claims of authority, etc, it will make my life much easier, and save some of my brain cells.
Atheism is not like that. I don't ever think to myself, "What would/should an atheist do?". I don't ask myself what Dawkins would say - I think he's an ass. I would ask what is known from applying scientific methods. I might ask what Jesus or Gandhi would do. I don't see Christianity as necessarily being an assault on science. Those who have moved science forward include numerous individuals who believe there is a God. However, they do not include God or their religion in their science. The theory of evolution is an example. Darwin was willing to keep his religion from overshadowing what his science was telling him. Also, religion isn't the only source of attacks on science. Paltrow and her Goop. The opposition to vaccines. But, there is an element of religion that sees our educational institutions as worthy of serious opposition. This can be blown into a giant topic. My short version conjured as I type here is that humans have innate characteristics as have been developed over the eons. One may see our rights as the positive opposition to injustices that aren't tolerable by humans. As for conscience, I'd point out that science reports seeing morality in various actions of other species. If your religion is that god made man exactly as we are, then it's pretty logical to view natural law as something that came from god. Obviously, the world view of god as creator of absolutely everything would lead one coming to the conclusion that ANY thought would be attributable to god. So, natural law is just a piece of what god created. But, the issue concerning our constitution is that our rights are derived from natural law - what humans require in terms of justice, expression, participation, etc. It doesn't spring from Christianity as defined by the Bible - a body of work that is oriented to knowing our duty to god, not our individual rights. If you want to deny evolution, what has been discovered in other species, etc., etc., well, I hope we can limit that to cases such as our constitution where it doesn't make any difference.
