Abortion is a Homicide

I have never heard of a woman who had an abortion and who was then arrested for it.

 

You need to read up on the law, because no matter how many times you say it, abortion is not a homicide.

 

I'm sure it happens in countries where it is illegal. But I have no idea how they go about proving it or anything unless they literally catch her in the act because she could always just say she had a miscarriage.

 

My original point was: Once you decide to have a child it becomes a planned pregnancy. Even if you did not plan to get pregnant with your girl once you found out and made a conscious decision to go full term it became planned. Hence my OP: If it is not a planned pregnancy it is not a homicide because the intention from the mother never existed to bring the fetus to full term.

Hopefully that clears up my posting for you?

 

Not for abortions in the early stages of pregnancy.

The age threshold is not arbitrary .. it is based on when the fetus has brianfunction significant enough to be considered a living person.

I agree that there is a grey area 22-24 weeks is often the timeframe used.

Clearly however, at the zygote stage there is no brain, or heart for that matter, so no living human can be said to exist.

 

These two statements contradict each other. Self-defense is homicide. Homicide is not necessarily illegal.

 

Well of course not Poindexter, there is a court ruling declaring thiose legal homicides. After the arbitrary age threshold they are illegal homicides, AKA murders.

It is arbitrary because it is illogical to consider the entity a human being after, but not before.

I agree that there is a grey area 22-24 weeks is often the timeframe used.

All of which are irrelevant to whether or not the zygote/embryo/fetus is a human being.

 

No, actually you need to read up on what a homicide is. Legality plays no role.

 

Perhaps a modification is in order. If the unborn "child" is wanted, those who survive (mother, father, grandparents, ect) suffer a loss. That should be subject to a criminal penalty whether you want to call it a homicide or not.

 

Oh then I guess it has never happened anywhere at any time if you have never heard of it.

 

You are clearly wrong! Homicide is not a purely legal term. Abortion is obviously a homicide. No matter how many times you say it isn't, it still will be.

 

I am not trying to be heartless or cruel towards those that have lost a wanted fetus. But when people, like our good friend Whaler here, want to twist and turn fetal homicide laws, which the obvious purpose is to protect those with wanted pregnancies, so as to oppress women with UNWANTED pregnancies that's where I draw the line.

Penalize the criminals for injuring the woman and the woman only because the fetus is not a person.

 

Pity how you have nothing to back up that opinion.

 

Are you saying it has happened? Proof, please.

 

Yes, abortion is different to other forms of homicide. Some of the other forms are unique too (suicide and legal execution for example). It's a unique prospect which requires unique rules and laws. That much is, I think, universally agreed. The question is exactly what those unique rules and laws should be.

 

When I only post the actual language of the laws and provide an actual link, and you consider that "twisting", it is a sure sign that you are on the wrong side of the debate.

That is clearly NOT the intent of the law and it is Clearly not what the people want.

 

Actually I have all of this:


Definition of homicide:

http://definitions.uslegal.com/h/homicide/

“Homicide is the killing of a human being due to the act or failure to act of another. Criminal homicides include murder and manslaughter. Non-criminal homicides include killing in self-defense, a misadventure like a hunting accident or automobile wreck without a violation of law like reckless driving, or legal (government) execution. Suicide is a homicide, but is rarely prosecuted. Assisting or attempting suicide can be a crime.”

Definition of human being:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/human+being

“Human Being
n.
A human.
human being
a member of any of the races of Homo sapiens; person; man, woman, or child”

Definition of Child:

“Child
Definition
child
[ child ]
chil•dren Plural
NOUN
1.
young human being: a young human being between birth and puberty
2.
human offspring: a son or daughter of human parents
3.
somebody not yet of age: somebody under a legally specified age who is considered not to be legally responsible for his or her actions
4.
baby: a baby or infant
5.
unborn baby: a baby that has not yet been born
6.
immature adult: an adult who is regarded as behaving in a childish or inappropriately childlike way
7.
product or result: somebody or something considered to be either produced or strongly influenced by a particular environment, period, or historical figure
"a child of nature"
"a child of the 1960s"
8.
descendant or member of people: a descendant of somebody, or a member of a people with a common ancestor or geographic origin ( often used in the plural )
"children of Abraham"
[ Old English cild ]
with child pregnant (archaic or literary)

Legal support:

FEDERAL
The Unborn Victims of Violence Act

http://www.nrlc.org/Unborn_Victims/keypointsuvva.html

“The law covers the "child in utero," defined as "a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb."

State Fetal Homicide Laws:

http://www.ncsl.org/IssuesResearch/Health/FetalHomicideLaws/tabid/14386/Default.aspx

Alabama:

Ala. Code § 13A-6-1 (2006) defines person for the purpose of criminal homicide or assaults. The law defines person to include an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability and specifies that nothing in this act shall make it a crime to perform or obtain an abortion that is otherwise legal.

Ohio:

Ohio Rev. Code Ann. § 2903.01 et seq. (2002) define aggravated murder, murder, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, negligent homicide, aggravated vehicular homicide, aggravated vehicular assault, felonious assault, aggravated assault, assault and negligent assault. The law applies to a person, which includes an "unborn member of the species Homo sapiens, who is or was carried in the womb of another."

Texas:

Tex. Penal Code Ann. § 1.07 relates to the death of or injury to an unborn child and provides penalties. The law defines an individual as a human being who is alive, including an unborn child at every stage of gestation from fertilization until birth.

Kentucky:

Ky. Rev. Stat. § 507A.010 et seq. (2004) define "unborn child" as a member of the species homo sapiens in utero from conception onward, without regard to age, health or condition of dependency. The laws define fetal homicide in the first, second, third, and fourth degrees.
And there are more.


If the killing of a “child in utero” is a homicide when he/she is killed by someone other than his/her mother, then reason and logic tells us, by the terms of the definition of the word homicide, that the mother killing the child is also a homicide as the definition of homicide is not situational.[/QUOTE]

YOU on the other hand have NOTHING, but "well I don't think it's a homicide".

 

Already been posted by other posters. Do try to keep up.

 

I don't think it needs vastly different rules and laws.

 

or that it would have been fine if someone had run up and kicked your wife in the stomach and killed her at six months? (if 'unplanned' is the criteria?)

 

Not vastly different, not necessarily different but it is a unique concept to all the other type of homicide and so different rules and laws could be perfectly legitimate.

That makes the fact it is a form of homicide pretty much irrelevant.

 

No, I just don't see that. How is an abortion different than the murders covered in fetal homicide laws?

 

YOU on the other hand have NOTHING, but "well I don't think it's a homicide".
[/QUOTE]

This has all been refuted:

Your "general" dictionary definitions give colloquial language usage (the term "with child" for example) only means that this is what people mean when they use the term .. it not a technical definition of what a zygote is.

The fact that women who have abortions in the early stages of pregnancy are not charged with homicide refutes your theory that all abortion is homicide.

 

No colloquialisms involved in my analysis whatsoever. That was a particularly weak rebuttal.

Your ignoring large sections of my posts is getting tiresome. Read the definition of homicide again. People are NEVER charged with homicide for an intentional killing, they are charged with murder!



Silly GDO, none of this has or can be refuted, it is all cold hard fact!!!!

 

The same reason legal execution, doctors turning off a patient's life-support and assisted suicide are different to murder and manslaughter. You can argue to treat all homicide the same or treat each kind of it's merits. You can't argue that they are different, apart from one which must be treated exactly like one of the others.

The decisions and actions of a pregnant women regarding the pregnancy and ultimately birth which will inevitably have a major impact upon her is entirely different to the decisions and actions of a third party. That in itself doesn't make abortion right, in any or all circumstances, but it does mean it could potentially be right (or least wrong) in some.