Abu Mazen: Pre-67 Land Also "Occupied"

Discussion in 'Middle East' started by stuntman, Oct 20, 2015.

  1. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    As the UN document stated, the voting on that did happen, but the PLO never fulfilled the voting, hence since the voting was never been fulfilled, then te Charter wasnt amended in any way.

    Do you know that Intentions are not actuall actions? For example:
    "Jimmy intended to go to football practice, but instead he chose to stay at home and watch netfilx."

    According to the passage, did Jimmy go to football practice? If no , then you cant say that Bibi really dragged Oslo, because as you could see "Intentions" are not "actuall actions".

    So if you are saying that "Withdrawals are only good if it means Israel has less responsibility over Arabs residing in Gaza Strip and West Bank.", then you are support Wye and Hebron Agreements that was a withdrawals of lands of the West Bank and giving it to the Arabs responsibility. And yet again, this sentence of yours contradicts you previous statement that you said that you are against Wye and Hebron Agreements.

    I never said you do.

    As I already told you:
    Carmi (like all of the people that you cited that were "former" of something) he is today ordinery citizen like you and I, thus it makes him no more importent that you and I. What he toady is saying it's only his own opinion and nothing more.

    I never said that you say that.

    And still it doesnt mean that he necceserily should kill another Jew, there is alot more acitons that this person can do that are legal without kill someone.

    The fact that Ehud Barak is the most decorated soldier, it doesnt necceserily means that his opinion carries heavy weight.
    The fact that Ehud Barak is the mose decorated soldier in Israel is only means that he was brave, with great shape etc. . His opinions today are his own opinions, and thus his opinions has no special weight then yours or mine.

    As I already wrote to you:

    I already read what you provided here in the third time, and still what you provided here does not answer my question.
    My question was who were the men that were identified, what were their names, and yet I didnt get names. So once again:

    what were the names of those settlers that been identified?

    And still the fact that they did not cooperate in the interogation is not bad. A citizen has all the right to not cooperate in an interogation.

    Moreover, you say that they were identified- what were their names?

    So if the officer already knew who was the perpetrator, then what was his name?

    So if they were identified, what were their names?

    It does not contradicts what was written in it.

    And it is not contradicting the fact that such memo can be used in a future nagotiation.

    I never talked about Kiryat Arba regarding the memo. Please read what I'm writing to you. Kiryat Arabs has permits to exist.

    Moreover, here is the policy options from the memo:
    As you can see, the "Policy Options" in the memo does not state that the Jews have the right of return as long it will be under the "Palestinian" state.


    So if Eliezer Waldman WAS the chief rabbi of Kyriat Arba, then his opnions today does not relevent, since, once again, he is not the chief rabbi of Kiryat Arba.

    You havent answered my question, just repeated yourself. Once again:
    Did you made a survey and checked if most of the settler in those settlements are extremists? Because if not then you are just generelizing.
     
  2. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Do 'Neturei Karta' read and speak Hebrew? Do 'Neturei Karta' understand written and spoken Hebrew??? I doubt it!!!

    What Stuntman has explained is absolutely correct!!!
    The meaning of the conversation was that Oslo took second place after the Hebron accord. Or in an other fashion 'Oslo was put on the back-burner when the Hebron accord was implemented'.
     
  3. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    of course THEY do
     
  4. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    In the mind of anti Zionist's dreams perhaps...

    Israel is a Modern entity that locks step with the world at large and goes forward.... No one dresses in Medieval Black regalia anymore which make the 'Neturei Karta/Satmar' anti-Zionist people pop like a sore thumb in the middle of the 21st Century...

    **Would I have the same tendentious RESPECT towards the Satmarer Joel Teitelbaum YmS, who in 1950 issued an "ukase" (decree) prohibiting his followers from learning and speaking Hebrew.? NO!

    **Would I have any respect for the present leader of the Satmarer who order their followers to burn the Israeli Flag on Purim and Lag Ba-Omer, while giving their young children their first haircut? NO!

    **Would I love my fellow Jew of the Satmar who Join in demonstration with the PLO demanding the destruction of the 'State of Israel? NO!

    **Would I be going in the street on the orders of the Satmar Rebbe stoning cars for any reason? NO!

    These are only a sample i.e. burning the Israeli Flag of what the "Satmar/Neturei Karta" have had for us since a Long Time… They say that the State of Israel by its very existence is an abomination against G-d… What a Heresy, what a pompous deliberate Infamy what a lie what an Ignominy!

    Hassidism, from which the Satmar followed, is a social movement that was originally founded in Eastern Europe by Israel Baal Shem Tov (1699-1760), usually referred to by the acrostic BeShT.

    It taught that what G-d wanted of us WAS NOT asceticism and the mortification of the flesh, but rather devotion or (DVEKUT), Joy (SIMHAH), Enthusiasm (HITLAHVUT).
     
  5. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    so the Founding Fathers of Israel, were anti-Zionist?
     
  6. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    They were!!! Hertzel, Weisman, Ben-Gurion and the rest were all Zionist.

    Zionism is a political movement for the return of Jews to their Ancient Patrimony!!!
     
  7. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    and yet the Israeli govt. in 1949 called for the West Bank to become an independent Arab state
     
  8. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Arabs were offered 'Self Determination'... Israel is a Jewish State and no one should demand from it to <create> another Arab State in the heart of the Jewish Patrimony!
    The Arabs have already 22 <twenty two states> created this past century.
     
  9. xavierphoenix

    xavierphoenix New Member

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    Arabs were offered 'Self Determination'... Israel is a Jewish State and no one should demand from it to <create> another Arab State in the heart of the Jewish Patrimony!
    The Arabs have already 22 <twenty two states> created this past century.


    You have a Jewish home called state of Israel since 1948. Israel within green lines is sovereign Israel it's never going to another state and most if not all of settlement blocs will stay with Israel. Stop acting like Ronstar and anyone who criticizes greater Israel is the same as someone that wants Israel destroyed. Ben Gurion along nearly rest of founders of Israel and most of Israel's top security experts all agree that Israel can't be a Jewish and democratic state if it keeps the West Bank; it's why Ben Gurion wisely barred Palmach from capturing West Bank during 1948 war. You ignored Ronstar's question which is do you consider Ben Gurion, Dayan, and others like them anti-Zionists when they have called for Israel to leave most of West Bank?
     
  10. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    Not worth responding to... but I will make an effort.
    a) Israel is a unit... Judea and Shomron are part of this unit!!!
    b) Judea and Shomron were liberated from the Jordanian conqueror.
    c) Judea and Shomron were liberated by Tsahal=IDF and not the PLO.
    d) The Arabs of Israel can obtain 'Self Determination' in their cities and nothing else...
    e) If they think they can get a better deal they can declare war on Israel.
    f) If they touch civilians they will be eliminated!
     
  11. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    ".....their Ancient Patrimony!!!"

    Please spare us more of the same fraudulent & soundly debunked Zionist Mythology.

    The Foreign, European Immigrants and Foreign, Invading Zionist Terrorist Gangs that swarmed into Palestine for "Free Land" have about as much genetic connection to Palestine as the Eskimos.

    I'll attempt to spell it out for you with the following cold Facts:

    1. Of the 38 signatories to Israel's Declaration of Independence, only 1 was a Regional native.

    - - - - - - -

    2. Additionally, Ben Gurion clearly articulates the credibility of Palestinian Patrimony over ultra-Nationist Zionist Mass Murderers & Land Thieves:

    "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know
    the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography
    books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are
    not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place
    of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the
    place of Tal al- Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that
    did not have a former Arab population." -- David Ben Gurion,

    - - - - - - -

    3. The science of Genetics also debunks your story book fantasy by confirming that most of Palestine's native Arabic population IS genetically connected to the original Regional residents:


    “Palestinian people”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people
    “Genetic analysis suggests that Palestinians are "descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times," and that the Muslims among them are largely descendants of Christians and Jews from the southern Levant.[19” CONTINUED

    - - - - - - - -

    4. The scientists at John Hopkins who confirmed the findings of Israeli - American Geneticist, Dr. Eran Elhaik are far more credible than raving Zionist ultra-Nationalists desperate to solidify their license for Land Theft.

    Naturally Western Major Media journalists were not eager to debunk the fictional "Patrimony" of their bosses, hence, we must rely on the bane of all "Hasbarats", Independent media on shoestring budgets:


    "Genome Evolution of Jewish Population John Hopkins"
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/123652605/Genome-Evolution-of-Jewish-Population-John-Hopkins


    “New Genome Study Destroys Zionist Claims to Palestine! “http://socioecohistory.wordpress.co...ign-myth-of-jewish-genome-to-usurp-palestine/
    “ EXCERPT On December 14, 2012, , Dr. Eran Elhaik turned almost two generations of Jewish genome research upside down.
    -
    But he went even further. The young Israeli-American geneticist has charged former researchers with academic fraud, and he has the research to back it up.
    -
    How could those those(*)eminent Jewish scientist before him have been so wrong? Easy says Dr. Elhaik, “First these researchers decided what conclusions they wanted to find, and then they set off to find evidence to support it.” I was not bashing Jewish scientists. What Elhaik has described is a slam dunk fraud.
    -
    But why?(*)Why would Jews who take such pride in the academic achievement risk exposing themselves to a group deception which was bound to be discovered later? Dr. Elhaik does not delve into the quicksand of the politics, but I will gladly do so.
    -
    They perpetrated the fraud solely to support the bogus biblical claim to Palestine which was anchored in their being a separate people. This distinguished them from all others because they claimed a land title in their blood.
    -
    They bet the farm on this DNA proof of purchase, a God given(*)bar coded passport to the Palestine. Dr. Ehaik just erased the bar code. It was just stamped on anyway, because it was never in the blood.”CONTINUED

    - - - - - - - - -

    5. If that's not enough to shake your cartoonish image of the prehistoric "Flintsteins" eating Kosher dinosaur meat in Jurassic Palestine maybe the dearth of references to an Ancient Kingdom of Israel in all of Egypt's detailed records will clear the muddy water:


    ““Take Egypt out and the whole structure of the(*)Israelites’ tale would instantly fall apart.”
    https://ashraf62.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/in-ancient-egypt-canaan-revisited-without-israel/
    EXCERPT “Did you know that Egypt is(*)mentioned in the Holy Bible approximately 700 times (Egypt: 595 times, Egyptian(s): 120 times).
    Obviously, Egypt must have played a vital role in the history of the Hebrews otherwise it wouldn’t have been such a recurring theme in the Jewish holy book.
    Egypt was, and still is, the magnificent overture to the Israelites’ story. Take Egypt out and the whole structure of the(*)Israelites’ tale would instantly fall.

    But on the other hand, do you know how many times Israel or the Israelites were mentioned in the ancient Egyptian records? … Well, and according to history and the ancient Egyptian meticulous records, .... once or … maybe none at all.”CONTINUED


    Briefly put, in Egypt's detailed records, there were many references to the real & significant Empires & Kingdoms throughout the Region but either no or maybe 1 reference to an Israel.

    Until recently, archeologists have relied only on the Old Testament, a self serving document of a small, Semitic tribe, to create a grand & expansive Hebrew Empire that was little more than a much smaller entity.

    For example:

    "The Archaeological Evidence for the Bible is Non-Existent!"
    http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMN...cal_Evidence_for_the_Bible_is_NonExistent.htm


    “Solomon's Temple”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Solomon
    EXCERPT "“There is no direct archaeological evidence for the existence of Solomon's Temple, and no mention of it in the surviving contemporary extra-biblical literature.”CONTINUED


    I'm not claiming that there were no Hebrews or they didn't briefly occupy parts of Palestine, but, as far as your Expansive Hebrew Empire dating back to prehistoric times......it just wasn't there

    Sorry to pop any bubbles.....

    ...."Yabba dabba doy vey"

    “David's Jerusalem: It's Not There - Archaeology Disproves The Bible”
    https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.culture.jewish/VFc2yaqFFdE[1-25-false]
     
  12. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    the West Bank is not part of the State of israel
     
  13. ARDY

    ARDY Well-Known Member Donor

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    To be fair, ron, there is much dispute about that
    Many zionists are convinced that historically and via gift from Jehovah
    This is an inseperable part of israel
    But that the people living there are not israelis and should leave
    One way or another
     
  14. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    ARABS ARE THE ONES ENCROACHING ON &#8216;THE LAND OF THE JEWS&#8217; AND NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND

    ~HBendor

    What one notices all over the Media&#8230; is that some pro-Arab reporters are bent at manipulating facts, are also trying their best with a premeditated intent to entice the readers to some revisionist historical data.

    One of the myths connected to the Arab Israeli conflict, is that Israel and the whole of "Mandatory Palestine" before it, was stolen from the Arabs as a result of "Imperialist Machinations," and was settled by Alien Jews...

    When one reads, contentious statements, i.e. quote: "Israel sits on the Arab land of Palestine, inhabited mostly by immigrants Jews who had never set a foot in Palestine." Unquote&#8230;

    The reader is under the impression that such an assertion is accurate in every aspect, and, has received blessings and approbation from the enlightened communities of the world.

    Nothing is further from the truth&#8230; Jews are not Aliens to their Land, (The Land of Israel from Time Immemorial)&#8230;! History proves that, Archaeology proves that! "Jesus the Jewish prophet" (accepted as such by the Muslim religion), was born there whilst Judea and Israel (two Jewish Kingdoms) were under the yoke of the Roman Empire.

    The Arab speaks Arabic the foreign Language of the Arabian Peninsula... [Arab = Arabia] does it ring any bells? The Arab practice Islam the Religion of Mohammed... which started with Mohammed in Mecca and Medina (Arabia) in the Seventh Century AD... does it ring any bells? Arabia is now called Saudi Arabia on the name of the Dynasty of Ibn-Saud from the Nejd (Central Arabia)... doesn't it ring LOUD & CLEAR! The Arabs before Islam&#8230; were nomads and polytheists, isn't this a fact?

    The Jews claim Israel through History and Archaeology! A proof&#8230; that even the Americans cannot subscribe to in their own realm... On the other hand, the Arabs claim to Palestine is TENUOUS/FLIMSY/ WEAK at best, has no substantiation whatsoever in Archaeology to back and sustain its claims&#8230; The only vestige that would substantiate their respective passage through it&#8230; is a Mosque on the holiest site of Judaism.

    Here are some statistics (AD=Anno Domini = CE=Common Era -- BCE= Before Common Era)

    Israel Rule
    1447BCE - 587BCE = 860 years

    Babylon Conquest
    587BCE - 540BCE = 47 years

    Israel Autonomy (Under Persian rule)
    540BCE - 163BCE = 377 years

    Revolt of the Maccabees
    163BCE - 143BCE = 20 years

    Rule of the Hashmoneans
    143BCE - 37 BCE = 106 years

    Jewish Autonomy (Under Romans)
    37BCE - 637CE = 674 years.

    Total = 2084 years

    Less 47 years of Babylon conquest - 47 years

    TOTAL JEWISH RULE OVER ITS LAND - 2037 years


    Rule of the Caliphates.

    637CE - 1072CE = 435 years
    Thus during the whole period of recorded History, Palestine was never ruled by the Arabs of Palestine. The Rule of the various Caliphates (KHILAFAH), a Foreign Moslem Rule and NOT necessarily Arab, extended over a period of 435 years.

    Seljuk&#8217;s Rule (Turkmen)
    1072CE - 1099CE = 27 years

    Crusader Rule
    1099CE - 1291CE = 192 years

    Mameluk (slaves)
    1291CE - 1517CE = 226 years

    Ottoman Turk
    1517CE - 1917CE = 400 years

    British Mandate
    1918CE - 1948CE = 30 years

    Israel
    1948 to date
     
  15. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    what utter nonsense!!!

    the Jews also had periods of autonomy in Poland, Lithuania, and Russia.

    so that means they ruled Lithuania, Poland, and Russia????

    LOL!!!

    and no, after 135 AD, the Jews lost all autonomy in Palestine
     
  16. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Donor

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    Since you cite absolutely no sources to support your fantasies, we can only assume that you continue to rely on your Hasbara Handbook or simple Zionist Mythology for the nonsense you post.

    I've already debunked your fictional claims in my earlier Post # 61 which IS supported with credible sources.

    One of the only extra-biblical references to an "Israel" is on the Merneptah Stele.

    Meanwhile the Egyptian record keepers cited real & significant Kingdoms / Empires etc hundreds of times and an "Israel" maybe 1 time.

    Why?

    &#8220;Merneptah Stele&#8221;
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele
    EXCERPT &#8220;While alternative translations have been put forward, the majority of biblical archeologists translate a set of hieroglyphs on Line 27 as "Israel", such that it represents the first documented instance of the name Israel in the historical record,[2] and the only mention in Ancient Egypt.&#8221;[3]&#8221;CONTINUED
     
  17. xavierphoenix

    xavierphoenix New Member

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    "a) Israel is a unit... Judea and Shomron are part of this unit!!!"
    Israel is a state in the world that is recognized by most countries in the world. Judea and Samaria are not part of Israel and holds it under occupucation, this is the view of the rest of the world including Israel's allies like United States and E.U. with all embassies in Tel Aviv.

    "b) Judea and Shomron were liberated from the Jordanian conqueror."
    Israel's captured West Bank(or Judea and Samaria whatever you call it the facts remains the same)

    "c) Judea and Shomron were liberated by Tsahal=IDF and not the PLO."
    No one said West Bank was captured by PLO.

    "d) The Arabs of Israel can obtain 'Self Determination' in their cities and nothing else..."
    They can't obtain self determination since they are controlled by Israel while being denied citizenship. Self determination means letting people decide what country they want to be in which would mean letting Arabs residing in West Bank deciding if they want to be Israeli citizens(which they probably would vote for) or residing in a state created for them where they have citizenship. Israeli government will never have this referendum since most don't want to see 2.78 million Arabs become citizens making this apartheid and de facto separate Jewish supremacist state in West Bank seeming to continue indefinitely with no end in sight condemning both sides to constant bloodshed.
    "e) If they think they can get a better deal they can declare war on Israel."
    I don't get your point. So rather than negotiate you want Arabs residing in West Bank under military law without Israeli citizenship to fight you?

    "f) If they touch civilians they will be eliminated!"
    Israel has a right to defend themselves which includes killing Arabs if they pose a threat to someone ie for example stabbing someone. Israel doesn't show same conduct towards settlers who attack property of Arabs or Arabs themselves on a daily basis.

    I don't know why you have such hastily for someone just because they don't agree with greater Israel when as mentioned before Moshe Dayan, David Ben Gurion, Ezer Weizmann, Ariel Sharon, Ehud Barak, Ami Ayalon, Shaul Mofaz, Tzipi Livni, Ehud Olmert, Meir Sheetrit, Yitzhak Rabin, Amos Yadlan, Yuval Diskin, etc. all of them either founders of Israel or security experts all say the same thing that you can't have a Jewish and Democratic state if you keep the West Bank. You get irrational hostile and act like I"m Hamas or ayatollah of Iran when I'm simply stating viewpoint of your countries patriots and founders; people that wouldn't make state of Israel possible.
     
  18. xavierphoenix

    xavierphoenix New Member

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    Nor did Hbendor bother to mention that ancient kingdom of Judah and Israel is a completely separate entity from the state of Israel separated by thousands of years in history and many conquests by different powers. It's like arguing Islamic Republic of Iran or previous Pahlavi dynasty of Iran is the same as the Persian empire and therefore have right to own areas like Iraq and Lebanon. It's the same argument Russia uses for invading Ukraine and annexing Crimea.

    What people also don't mention enough and what hbendor likes to ignore that the founders of Israel like Ben Gurion, Dayan, and even Sharon all came out against greater Israel and supported Israel giving up most of West Bank. Nor is hbendor's views supported by most of Israel's security establishment with former Shin Bet head Carmi Gillon stating "The &#8220;occupation is bad for the future of Israeli society from all aspects &#8211; humanistic, economic, moral, etc. I can assure you that [former Shin Bet Directors Ami Ayalon, Avraham Shalom, Avi Dichter, Yaakov Peri, and Yuval Diskin] and some 95% of my colleagues and workers from the Shin Bet from over three decades all agree&#8221; that only a two-state solution will end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."
    http://www.israelnsp.org/what-they-say/a-viable-solution.html
     
  19. Sunspear

    Sunspear New Member

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    It's funny how you and your like moan about the Hamas Charter including a clause calling for the destruction of Israel, HBendor, when it has been Israel's mission, from day one, to get rid of the Palestinians and ethnically cleanse them from their homeland. Even the Likud Charter, older than Hamas's, has called for undermining any and all efforts to establish a Palestinian state where it rightfully should be. But just so you know, you who think that you have the right to the West Bank and the Gaza Strip: we are Palestinians, sons and daughters of Canaan, and we won't give up our land.
     
  20. HBendor

    HBendor New Member

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    You start your premise on a very shaky ground...
    The so-called Palestinian are surely from the surrounding Arab countries... The so called Palestinians consider themselves Arabs and Arabs means speaking the Arab language means in reality Arab = Arabia...
    The Likud is one party of 13 in existence in Israel and every party has it own goals. I doubt very much you have managed to read their charter and comprehend it.

    As far as Canaan is concerned I want you to know that Canaan was conquered by the Israelite and they intermarried with them... in literary vernacular they were absorbed by the Israelite... so the blood running in Jewish veins is Canaanite and the Jews of today are the true descendants of Canaan...

    This similitude has been tried before with the Philistines and other tribes then, populating Canaan... and, because the Philistines were alien to the Land of Canaan was not enough to give you any leverage on the Jews, so you dropped it and now you are clinging on Canaan to give substance to your origin when your origin is Arabia.

    Land of Canaan
    Canaanites,

    In the Old Testament, original inhabitants of the land of Canaan. According to the Book of Judges, the Israelite, during the 2nd millennium BC or earlier, gradually subjugated the Canaanite cities. By the end of the reign of Solomon, king of Israel, the Canaanites had virtually been assimilated into the Hebrew people, among whom they appear to have exerted a reactionary religious influence. The Canaanite religion itself was based on the worship of the divinities Baal and Ashtoreth. Biblical scholars now believe that the Hebrew language was derived from Canaanite sources, and that the Phoenician language was an early form of Hebrew. Recent discoveries indicate that, before the Hebrew conquest of the south of Canaan, the Canaanites and the Phoenicians constituted a single nation, and that the people now known as the Phoenicians subsequently developed as a separate nation

    Any Encyclopedia would have given a somewhat restricted description of Jewish antiquity since it derives mostly from the Bible and some from Josephus Flavius (our turncoat). The Septuagint, Greek Ancient writings and Archaeology tend to give a fragmentary analysis on Canaan and the Philistines (Trude and Moshe Dothan <People of the Sea> the search for the Philistines).

    As this is a very interesting theme to those that would want to augment their knowledge&#8230; I will G-d willing try to expand on the subject matter and write some more at a later stage. I hope what follows will give you in the meantime a satisfactory picture, quote:-

    The &#8220;Land of Israel&#8221; had many names and was called by many names in Antiquity&#8230; in between; it was called the &#8220;Land of the Jordan&#8221;, after the large river, which flows through its entire length (Psalm 42:7), and also &#8220;Land of Carmel&#8221; (Jer. 2:7). The term &#8220;Land of Zion&#8221;, the poetic name of Jerusalem, appears in modern literature.

    The ancient peoples who lived there before and during the Israelite conquest also gave the Land their names: &#8220;land of Canaan&#8221; or the &#8220;land of the Canaanites&#8221;, after the ancient people who lived in the northern part of the country, and &#8220;land of the Amorite&#8221;, after those who lived in the south.

    The prophet Amos, speaking in the name of the Lord, said: &#8220;I brought you up... to inherit the land of the Amorite&#8221; (Amos 2: 10). The Sages added: "There is no people harder than the Amorite; a hard person is called an Amorite" (Tosefta, Shabbat 7,23). Also &#8220;land of the seven peoples&#8221;, as in the Book of Joshua: &#8220;&#8230;He will dispossess for you the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girga(*)(*)(*)(*)es, Amorites, and Jebusites&#8221; (Josh. 3:10). The Jebusites lived in Jerusalem; hence the ancient name &#8220;city of the Jebusites&#8221;. The Midrash uses the term &#8220;land of the ten peoples&#8221;, and gives their names: the Kenites, Kenizites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Refaim, Amorites, Canaanites, Girga(*)(*)(*)(*)es, and Jebusites (Genesis Rabbah 48,27). The Israelite tribes settled in the Land and gradually overcame these various peoples until with passing generations the other peoples disappeared, and the entire land became the Land of Israel.

    The sages of the Talmudic period, who spoke Aramaic, rendered the names of the Land in that
    Language, and said: &#8220;The Lord's presence does not dwell outside the Holy Land&#8221; (Zohar
    Exodus, Terumah, p. 170b). The residents of Babylonia, to the east of Israel, called the Land
    &#8220;West&#8221; and its inhabitant&#8217;s "children of the West": "The sons of the West read the Torah during
    a three-year period" (Babylonian Talmud, Megillah 29a). The Land was called "mother"; other
    lands, &#8220;alien&#8221;. The Sages said of one who left the Land: &#8220;He left his mother's bosom and
    embraced an alien bosom&#8221; (Jerusalem Talmud, Mo'ed Katan 3). Of one who died in the Land
    and one who died elsewhere they said: &#8220;One who gives up [his soul] in his mother's bosom is
    unlike one who does so in an alien bosom&#8221; (Jerusalem Talmud, Ketubot 12). The Land of
    Israel is called &#8220;home&#8221; and the other lands &#8220;outside&#8221; (Psalms Midrash, &#8220;Shoher Tov&#8221;, 68:4).
    Scholars who live in Babylonia (&#8220;here&#8221;) are different from those of the Land of Israel (&#8220;there&#8221;)
    (Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 5a). The Midrash calls the Land &#8220;world&#8221;: &#8220;Why 'world'
    (Tevel)? Since it is involved (m&#8217;tubelet) in all&#8221;. [Play on the Hebrew word &#8220;tevel&#8221;] (Sifrei Deut.
    37, Proverbs, 8:26). Another name is strength as the ancient said: &#8220;there is no strength but the
    Land of Israel&#8221;.

    The name &#8220;Palestini&#8221;, from the Greek and Roman &#8220;Palestina&#8221;, appears in ancient Jewish literature. On the words of the Torah "there was famine in all the lands" (Gen. 41:54), the Sages said: "In three lands, one of them &#8220;Palestini&#8221; (Genesis Rabbah 90,6). On the Philistine city of Gath, which according to the Bible is in the South (Amos 6:2), it is said: &#8220;Those are the hills of Palestini&#8221; (Leviticus Rabbah 5,3). The Rabbis also refer to the Roman governors a high official in the Land of Israel, as &#8220;ruler of Palestini&#8221; (Yalkut Shimoni, Amos, 145).

    The name &#8220;Palestine&#8221; was also used by the early Zionists. The first Zionist bank established in England was called the &#8220;Anglo-Palestine Company&#8221; (A.P.C.). The bank, which became the nucleus of today's "Bank Leumi", printed bills with this name. Hebrew pronouncements during the early part of the British Mandate used the term &#8220;Palestina&#8221;. The British were later convinced, after great effort, to add in parentheses the name &#8220;Land of Israel&#8221;, and then only in abbreviation.
    Many terms for the Land exist in other languages. The English call it &#8220;Palestine&#8221;, and the Germans &#8220;Palastina&#8221;, having adopted the name through the course of generations from the Greek and Roman inhabitants of the Mediterranean coast. As seagoing peoples, the Greeks and Romans first discovered the Land of Israel through direct contact with its Philistine inhabitants, who lived in their coastal country of &#8220;Philistia&#8221; - From there, the name spread to the entire country. During the period of Roman rule the land was divided into districts: &#8220;Palestina Prima&#8221; in the South, &#8220;Palestina Secunda&#8221; in the central portion, and &#8220;Palestina Tertia&#8221; in the southern part of Transjordan. The English also called the country &#8220;the Holy Land&#8221;, and the French &#8220;Terre Sainte&#8221;, from the Latin &#8220;Terra Sancta&#8221;. The State of Israel issued a special medallion bearing the words "Terra Sancta" for non-Jewish pilgrims. The English "Land of Israel" and the French "Pays d'Israel" appear in Christian literature, and writers have called their books on the Land by these names. Another name common among non-Jews is &#8220;the promised land&#8221;, found in Latin literature and maps of the country. The English and Germans also use the names &#8220;land of the Bible&#8221; and &#8220;land of the Holy Scriptures&#8221;. &#8220;Das Gelobte Land&#8221; (the praiseworthy land) appears in German literature praiseworthy for the great events, which occurred during the time ancient Israel dwelt in the homeland of the Holy Scriptures and cradle of Christianity.

    In Arabic literature, the Land of Israel appears once in the Koran, as &#8220;Ard al Makdasa&#8221; (the Holy Land) in the Islamic version of Moses' words to the people of Israel: &#8220;Enter, my people, the Holy Land which Allah has assigned for you&#8221; (Koran, 5, &#8220;The Table&#8221;, 24). The Emir of Mecca called it <Ard Ibna&#8217;a Ihal Aslyin> =<Land of the original Owners> Ref. The Jews.

    Today the Arabs call the land &#8220;Falestin&#8221;, the Arabic version of &#8220;Palestina&#8221;, appearing in ancient Jewish literature. This name is found also in medieval Arabic literature, where it designates only a part of the Land of Israel, the southern district and its capital Ramla, corresponding to the ancient Roman &#8220;Palestina Prima&#8221;.

    Between medieval and modern times, the Arabs also called the Land of Israel, together with neighboring Syria, &#8220;A-Sham&#8221;.

    During the modern period, after the end of World War I, nationalist Arabs called the Land, including Transjordan, &#8220;Suria a-Jenubiyeh&#8221; (southern Syria). This was also the name of an Arabic newspaper published in Jerusalem. These nationalists hoped to annex the Land of Israel, then under British rule, to Syria, where an Arabic kingdom had been established. When the French, who had been promised the mandate over all of Syria and Lebanon, put an end to this kingdom, the term &#8220;southern Syria&#8221; disappeared.
    Bibliography Zev Vilnay
     
  21. Sunspear

    Sunspear New Member

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    And you even managed to post a slew of text without citing a source. Anyways, I can post a wall of text, too.

    Educate yourself. Please.
     
  22. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    The Man that wrote that article is a political analyst. Do you think that a political analyst is a better source then a proper hystorian/Arcehaologist?
    Za'av Vilnay, the source of HBendor, is a well known Israeli historian and geographer and was and still considered as one of the greatest researchers of the Land of Israel and it's antiquities.
     
  23. Challenger

    Challenger Member Past Donor

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    Considered by who? To be fair, Ze'ev Vilnaj was a Zionist and Israeli Defence Minister in his time, so that might call into question his academic objectivity.
     
  24. Ronstar

    Ronstar Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    disproven crap.

    the Palestinians are the descendants of ancient Jews, Romans, Turks, Arabs, Circassians, Bosnians, Egyptians, Kurds, Berbers, Persians, Tatars, and all the other Muslim immigrants that have come to Palestine over the centuries.

    there is no evidence that the Palestinians of today are descended from Arabs who moved to Palestine since 1918, as there was very little Muslim immigration to Palestine during that period.

    nevermind the fact that the Arab growth rate from 1918 to 1948 is identical to their growth rate from 1949 to 2015, when there was ZERO Arab migration to Israel.
     
  25. stuntman

    stuntman Well-Known Member

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    By the Israeli Academia, which has a vast majority of left wingers in it.

    So wheh did to support an establishment of a country has became a crime, or at least a wrong thing to do? Because a Zionist is a man who support an establishment of a country to the Jewish people in the Land of Israel.
     

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