an argument in defense of Chauvin

There are many people who claim that Chauvin murdered Floyd, that what happened was equal to murder.
But to make that claim, I believe is disingenuous. It was not so simple as that.

I will try to examine the reasoning in a systematic way.

A note of forewarning, this post is going to be very long.


Those who claim it was murder base that claim on the following reasoning:
(1) That Chauvin had no reason to place his knee on Floyd's neck, (2) That Chauvin knew that it would kill Floyd, and (3) That the knee to the neck was the cause that killed Floyd

The reality is that neither of these three premises are completely true.

It should also be pointed out that placing a knee on the neck was an accepted police restraint technique.
https://www.kare11.com/article/news...floyd/89-9f002e3f-972a-4410-86cb-50a1237fc496

Minneapolis police officer Thomas Lane presented Minneapolis Police Department training materials, including information on a restraint called the "maximal restraint technique," and a photo of an officer with his knee to a suspect's neck.
The training materials specify: "the maximal restraint technique shall only be used in situations where handcuffed subjects are combative and still pose a threat to themselves, officers or others, or could cause significant damage property if not properly restrained."​

It might have been a mistake to use that in that situation, and another mistake to do it for that long, but a mistake does not automatically necessarily equate to murder or manslaughter.

If there is a little mistake, which then leads to another little mistake, that is much more understandable than if that first mistake was made when it was absolutely clear at the time it should not have been done.

In other words, this was a mistake that was much easier to make and more understandable than normal "manslaughter" incidents typically are. It might have been reckless, but we have to talk about the degree of that recklessness. If the degree is very low it might not even rise to a level that it should be criminally prosecuted, or if it is only a little higher than that, maybe it should be criminally prosecuted but the punishment should be extremely minimal.

The thing is, it may not have been entirely reasonable to do what he did, but it was not entirely unreasonable either.

Let's break this into separate components and analyze one thing at a time.
First, Chauvin put his knee on Floyd.
Second, Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd for 9 minutes.

When we are looking at degree of mistake and level of fault, I don't think it's fair to just lump those together.

Ignoring the length of time it happened, for a moment, I don't think it would have seemed like such an obvious big mistake to Chauvin at the time to do that.

It's important to emphasize here that this isn't a yes or no thing, either a mistake or not a mistake. It was somewhere in the grey zone between those two.

Next, after that, although it constituted another mistake, I don't believe it's such a great jump to go from placing a knee on the suspect for 2½ minutes to placing a knee on the suspect for 9 minutes. That is a mistake that is not too difficult to make. If you're already doing something, and there's not really any definite way to know exactly how long to do it, it is easy to do it too long.

All the training in the world will still not always prevent mistakes sometimes in these situations. Humans are not computers or robots. They do not have the luxury of time to carefully think over all their decisions in these situations. When police are involved in physical altercations, decisions have to be made under pressure.

When a big strong man with a large body frame physically resists, what are police supposed to do? It's simply unreasonable and unrealistic to expect to have a perfect outcome 100% of the time in that situation.

Police in these situations often have to think on their feet and improvise.

What happened here seems more like a mistake that could have been seen as not entirely completely obvious, or at least close to the borderline of being that.


Some will say that it was Chauvin's actions that killed Floyd, but that is not so clear.
I believe there were multiple factors that all combined together which resulted in Floyd's death.
The application of the officer's knee which restricted flow of air, combined with a high level of fentanyl, combined with impaired lung capacity from the coronavirus, possibly combined with an arterial clot, combined with "excited delirium" from the interaction between the illegal drugs and the interaction with police, combined with the physical exertion during the struggle which put additional strain on the heart.

Handwritten notes of a law enforcement interview with Dr. Andrew Baker, the Hennepin County Medical Examiner, say Floyd had 11 ng/mL of fentanyl in his system.
"If he were found dead at home alone and no other apparent causes, this could be acceptable to call an OD. Deaths have been certified with levels of 3," Baker told investigators.

In another new document, Baker said, "That is a fatal level of fentanyl under normal circumstances."

But then Baker added, "I am not saying this killed him."​

https://www.kare11.com/article/news...ystem/89-ed69d09d-a9ec-481c-90fe-7acd4ead3d04

Would he have died if it hadn't been for the knee? Probably not. But to say that it was the knee, the knee and nothing else that killed him would be disingenuous.

The knee was like the final straw that pushed the situation over the edge.

In some ways it was like the "perfect storm" of multiple causes coming together.

That type of pressure applied to the neck usually does not kill, but in this case it did because there were several medical conditions combining together.
So we can talk about how likely was it that Chauvin knew (or should have known) those actions would have resulted in death.
There is always a small chance of death in any situation like this. That does not necessarily totally excuse Chauvin, it is fair to say that this type of restraint probably inherently carries with it at least an exceedingly small chance of death. That does not mean this type of restraint is never justified, however. Chauvin could not have been aware of all the special factors that existed in this situation that made the chance of death much higher.

The coronavirus was a relatively new phenomena at this time, and people did not know much about it. That probably would not have entered into the minds of any of these officers in this situation.

The fentanyl may likely have played a big role in the asphyxia. Opioids are well known to result in depressed breathing. Between the fentanyl and reduced lung capacity function from the virus, that could have rendered him far more vulnerable to constriction of his airway.



My personal opinion... he deserved some punishment.

However, the existing laws were just not very well-suited to this sort of exact situation.

Technically it could be possible for a rational person to look at the facts and decide that what he did constituted a violation of all those laws he was convicted of.

But it's not as simple as that. Applying laws doesn't always work so simple as people imagine.

He will likely end up getting more prison time than he deserves (although that's a little premature to say since the sentencing phase hasn't begun yet).

The meaning of words are not always so black and white. There is a spectrum.
And laws don't exist to cover every conceivable possible specific situation. So sometimes it's a cookie-cutter approach, the laws don't exactly fit the offense perfectly, but those are the only laws that exist.

What do you call it when someone makes a mistake, causes a death, probably had some reason to believe what they were doing might result in a small chance of death, but the decision they had to make was when they were under pressure and they only had a short period of time to think about it, and when much of the blame for the death was not theirs? When their decision was not reasonable, but also did not seem entirely unreasonable in the moment either.

See, the law doesn't really have a specific classification for that.

Yeah, that's sort of like "second degree murder", but really more like only 15 percent of a typical "second degree murder".


Just to point out, I'm not conflicted. I'm just trying to look into detail at the truth and reality. Reality is not always so simply black & white.
Sometimes it can be too complicated for people to want to be able to think about or really understand.


It gets more complicated, because putting the knee on the neck was not as big of a mistake as keeping the knee on the neck for so long. Yet we can't really know if it was the first that actually killed him or the second.

I think that may have been a big factor to the jury in why they decided to find him guilty of second degree murder.
(But again, that's more like a mistake that MIGHT have resulted in the death, but we can't be sure)

In my view, it falls somewhere in the grey zone between, reckless endangerment, manslaughter, and being accidental.


While it is true that under Minnesota law, intent to kill is not required for second degree murder, I'm not sure that law really intended to apply to situations like this. The wording of the law says "while committing a felony offense". I'm pretty sure that was not meant to apply to mistakes made while police are restraining a resisting suspect.

Unintended consequences of the wording in laws, or rather wording being interpreted too broadly.

 

For those that think he is guilty, here is a hypothetical you can ask yourself. If Chauvin had only kept his knee on Floyd for two and a half minutes, should he still be considered guilty?

Is the fact that he kept the knee on for so long a crucial element to his guilt, or is that not needed for him to be guilty?

Keep in mind we cannot even know for sure whether Floyd would have died or not if the knee had only been on him for two and a half minutes, or whatever duration of time it might have been more reasonable to have the knee on him.

And yes, that does make truly and fully logically analyzing this more complicated.


Are you capable of seeing this in a way that's not all or nothing?

Murder is not murder, not always at least. There can be all sorts of different degrees of murder (and I'm not even referring to how the law classifies those degrees).


The toxicology report found methamphetamine and fentanyl in Floyd's system, along with high levels of THC, presumably from marijuana.

The drugs caused this man to act irrational and erratically, and probably impaired his thinking process probably causing him to act illogically. He almost certainly would not be dead if there were not high levels of drugs in his system. Both because he wouldn't be trying to resist, and those drugs put additional strain on his body that, combined with the other factors, caused the death when he was under that type of restraint.

I'm not saying this man didn't have the right to not have those things happen to him, but some of the fault for his death has to be seen as being on him.

They said there was enough fentanyl and meth in his system to potentially kill him. Now you take that combined with impaired lung capacity caused by the coronavirus, a huge rush of adrenaline from being in an altercation with police, the physical exertion from struggling, all this interacting both ways with the drugs (a state police commonly informally refer to as "excited delirium"), the drugs causing impaired heart function, and then on top of all that the airway being constricted from the (somewhat questionable) knee restraint technique, it was certainly enough to tip him over the edge into having a heart attack. It was like the perfect storm of factors coming together to cause the death.

If you had taken any one of those single factors out of the equation, he very likely would not have died.

Using drugs can end up putting you in situations where your life is at risk.
This includes altercations with other people and interactions with police.

I am not saying it was all his fault, or that the police deserve absolutely no punishment. I am just saying that some of the fault is his.

This was a big strong man with a big body frame. If this had been some frail elderly person who couldn't put up a struggle, it would be an entirely different story.
What are police expected to do when the suspect they are trying to arrest is a big strong man who won't stop struggling and resisting and there is no other way to pacify him?

With all these underlying conditions that existed, even shooting him with a tranquilizer gun probably would have had a high chance of causing death.

Some might argue there must have been plenty of other ways to pacify the suspect.
That may be true, but people are not always going to make perfect decisions when they're forced to think fast.
If your job was to pacify people who had that sort of body build, you'd probably make mistakes once in a while too.

I would suggest that if this is a murder, it is a very low degree of murder. That means the officer has some responsibility for the death, but not all the responsibility.

If the situation were just a little bit different, like if the suspect wasn't in handcuffs and the officer had kept the knee on him for only 2 minutes instead of 8, this wouldn't be murder at all.

A mistake does not automatically equate to murder.

It wasn't just the knee that resulted in death.
It was that combined with enough fentanyl in his system to kill him, having the coronavirus, and then him just having gone through a struggle and physical altercation, exertion that put additional strain on his heart.

The knee tipped him over the edge, to death.

It was a mistake, I'm not saying it wasn't. But to automatically equate a mistake with murder is taking it a little too far.

In my opinion, it was the drugs, combined with the knee, combined with the coronavirus, and combined with the physical altercation and exertion as well, which only placed additional strain on his heart.


It is true the medical examiner made an official "determination" that Floyd died from "asphyxia", and that the prosecution made a strong case during the trial that neither Floyd's history of drug abuse nor his heart condition would have likely manifested itself at this exact moment.

The medical examiner applied his subjective opinion to the facts. I doubt he determined the "cause of death" only through his medical findings.

A lot of times people are too quick to buy into determinations of "experts", without any clue how these experts typically arrive at their findings.

It's not the perfect exact precise science that many people assume. There can easily be situations where you can bring in different "experts" and they can disagree on interpretation of the facts.

There were a lot of medical factors here coming together.

I have researched cases of wrongful convictions, and one of the typical factors that often came up were experts who provided wrongful interpretations of the evidence.


Maybe I can state it this way: He did have the right not to be killed while he was on drugs, but the fact that he was on drugs should make the punishment against the one who killed him less.


I think unfortunately due to the nature of the law, it was "all or nothing".

This is something I've been complaining about for a while, the structure of legal system. The jury can only either vote "guilty" or "not guilty", even for laws that were not really made to address that exact situation. It's like trying to hammer in round peg into a square hole.

All the discretion lies in the hands of the judge, but they often abrogate all the responsibility into the hands of the prosecutor and jury. Whether out of mental laziness or incompetence, all too often they just simply follow the sentencing guidelines for whatever criminal statutes the jury convicted them of.


He was intentionally applying pressure to the neck, which made it more difficult to breathe. He did this because the suspect was out of control, and there was no other way to pacify him or get him to stop resisting. This was a big strong man who was acting irrationally and erratically and under the influence of drugs.

Under normal circumstances that would have been very unlikely to kill him, but there were multiple special medical issues that combined together which the officer did not know about. High levels of drugs in his system, combined with fear and physical exertion from the struggle, combined with the coronavirus which was new and not well known about at the time, all this combined together may have been enough to trigger a heart attack.

Although the medical examiner made the determination that the cause of death was asphyxia, we cannot know for sure whether the death was actually caused by the a heart attack or directly from the asphyxia. The asphyxia could have been the cause of a heart attack in this situation, or limited air could have been the trigger of the heart attack. I know those two things seem similar but they have a subtle important difference with big legal implications. The first one implies that the asphyxia would have been destined to cause death regardless of whether there had been a heart attack. The real issue at stake here is whether death would have resulted if there had not been special additional conditions present which strongly factored into the heart attack.

A blood clot was found, but it is impossible to determine whether that could have been the cause of the heart attack, or a result of it. When the heart stops working, it is not uncommon for blood to be able to pool up while it is motionless and then clots are much more likely to form.

 

This is outstanding case review.
Unfortunately we are at political war, so laws are not really interpreted and applied correctly during wartime.

 

Some argue that Chauvin should have had a "duty to care" and should have shown consideration to the state of health Floyd was in.

He might not have been aware that Floyd had communicated to officers he was having difficulty breathing earlier, before the struggle begin.

Floyd may have started screaming he couldn't breathe later, but that likely would not have been very convincing because of the irrationally hysterical way Floyd was speaking (probably due to the influence of the drugs), and suspects do often say things like that to be manipulative in these situations, to try to reduce the immediate pressure being applied against them, and it is very common for suspects in normal situations to start having more trouble breathing in those type of restraint positions after getting exhausted from struggling, which should be cause for concern but doesn't always mean something is wrong.

 

Chauvin had a much better defense attorney than you ...and he still was rightfully convicted...


In case you hadn't noticed the case has been investigated ALREADY by people who knew much more than you and who were experts, they didn't use Sci-Fi movies to determine the facts...nor a runaway imagination...

 

The simplest argument - not necessarily on appeal, mind you - is that two of the three crimes he was convicted of didn't even fit the fact pattern when reading the definition of the crimes.

Oh, and a "woke" juror just admitted the law had nothing to do with his decision. That might make for decent appeal material. I'm not a trial attorney.

 

When a 9 year old spectator could see Chauvin was, and did kill Floyd then there is absolutely zero excuse for Chauvin. He intended to and did.

 

It's not that simple. The stacked jury composed of people willing to settle a score denied Cauvin due process.

 

Chauvin had one fatal flaw that doomed him before the first witness was called. If he was judged not guilty there would have been mass riots all over the country. That means every Nike store and every Apple store and Target in the country gets looted.

 

A juror in his trial is a cop hating blm terrorist. Fact.

 

A 9 year old performed the autopsy and body chemistry analysis? Why didn't he testify in the case?

 

Prove it... meanwhile Chauvin is convicted

 

9 minutes, Chauvin kept his knee on the back of man that was restrained and posed no threat to him. 9 minutes. He kept his knee on his neck when people were yelling at him that Floyd stopped breathing.

I am a back the blue supporter that donates yearly, but this is a no brainer. Chauvin is guilty as hell and deserves to be in prison.

 

If you look at the bodycam video, they push the suspect into one side of the squad car and then another officer opens the door on the other side to get in there to pull him towards the center of the car, since the suspect seems to be acting hysterical and, combined with being handcuffed, it's not clear he can do everything for himself and needs assistance. Floyd hysterically shouts "I can't breathe", the officer is then heard saying "Fine!" and possibly seems to start pulling Floyd out the other end, but Floyd mostly propels out on his own momentum, and barrels out of the other side. This seems to possibly be a little surprising to the officer on the other side who doesn't really seem to be on top of the situation and is just assisting, and didn't know exactly what to do in that situation. Floyd sort of tumbles out and hysterically repeats in a rambling way twice "I want to lay on the ground!" One of the other officers than says "You're getting in the squad [car]" and it seems like several officers then try to push him back into the car. Floyd keeps resisting and then apparently at some moment goes into some sort of distress, as he goes quiet.
The sound isn't the most clear but it sounds like one of the officers says something about getting oxygen and something about a heart attack. So they recognise there is a possible medical issue, but they are also frustrated with the suspect resisting, tumbling out of the car as soon as they got him in. Floyd then complains he can't breathe twice, at this point sounding a little exhausted.

 

So, you're saying the defense attorneys are idiots. Chauvin should sue for malpractice.

 

Court docs reveal 'extreme' public pressure on prosecutors in George Floyd case

According to the deposition of a former Hennepin County prosecutor, the county's medical examiner told her in a phone call that there "were no medical indications of asphyxia or strangulation."

New court documents expose the "extreme pressure" prosecutors faced in Hennepin County to charge Derek Chauvin and three other former Minneapolis police officers in the death of George Floyd.​

Several attorneys opposed charging the "other three" officers and withdrew from the case due to "professional and ethical rules."​

Now, hundreds of pages of sworn testimony of Hennepin County attorneys and other county employees that took place this summer have been made public.

He (Dr. Baker: medical examiner called me later in the day on that Tuesday and he told me that there were no medical findings that showed any injury to the vital structures of Mr. Floyd's neck. There were no medical indications of asphyxia or strangulation," Sweasy said, according to the transcript.

"He said to me, 'Amy, what happens when the actual evidence doesn't match up with the public narrative that everyone’s already decided on?' And then he said, 'This is the kind of case that ends careers.'"​

Court docs reveal 'extreme' public pressure on prosecutors in George Floyd case, Liz Collin, Alpha News, October 17, 2023

​

 

and he appealed the decision and lost the appeal...

 

Everyone is too invested in the narrative:

 

We got to hear the jurors on camera explain why they convicted and it blew my socks off. It exploded every legal idea I had about the whole affair and now I don't know what to think of it.
1) Coroner calls it homicide. Defense coroner states the correct finding should have been inconclusive. I think the defense coroner told the truth and given what we know about the "this is the kind of case that ends careers" coroner shows he is no longer trustworthy. But that doesn't matter. More soon.
2) Once they call it homicide and find that anything Chauvin did helped cause the death, they need to show Chauvin did something to intentionally cause harm. They had an MFA fighter testify that Chauvin was using MFA moves that intentionally cause pain. I thought he was lying and perjured himself. It doesn't matter. Because...

The Jury didn't believe them either. They say, on camera, that the convicted Chauvin of 2nd degree murder as he showed depraved indifference for Floyd being in obvious distress and allowed him to die unaided.

Can neglect in the face of duty = depraved indifference 2nd degree murder? Suppose a mother listens to her baby crying for days until the baby finally dies in a week old diaper, denied food and water.

In general, cops have no duty to protect. Were that not the case, every single crime victim might have a case against them and we'd be bankrupt. Further, in common law, there is no duty for anyone to do anything to aid another person. Massachusetts recently created the good Samaritan law eats into that a bit. But regardless, once you DO start helping, you can be judged for how you did when you helped. Floyd asked to be laid down. They did so. Does that trigger a duty to aid which they then did not do? EDIT: Cops/jailers are also responsible to an extent for the well being of people in their custody, as Floyd was.

EDIT: Wow. This should have been much more publicized. This interview is a year old. The relevant part starts around 7 min.

 

Above I go over why the jury tell us they convicted. None of the evidence of perjury and malfeasance by the prosecution matters because the truth of it is, Floyd was in their custody and they showed depraved indifference for his well being, doing nothing to help him when he was in obvious distress. And that lack of care too is captured on tape.

 

Dude died because he overdosed on fentanyl. The cops got screwed. End of story.

 

That's why he died but that's not why the jury convicted and too many people aren't being reminded of this. I love Tucker but he's too blown away by new evidence showing the state coroner appears to have perjured himself as he was expected politically to find homicide. That isn't why the jury convicted so doesn't matter. I show the clip in post 19 above of the Jury at 7 min. they state no matter how much they disagreed about all sorts of things, they all agreed: Floyd was in police custody and they therefore have a duty of care to someone in their custody and control. They could see he was in distress yet did nothing to help. Can neglect alone = depraved indifference hence 2nd degree murder? I also ask hypothetically, "Suppose a mother listens to her baby crying for days until the baby finally dies in a week old diaper, denied food and water."

 

It such as **** does matter. If that POS didn't overdose, he would still be alive. The cops didn't cause his death.

 

The only person with a depraved indifference for his life was Floyd.

The cops called an ambulance. They are not medical experts. They did not know he consumed enough fentanyl to kill an elephant.

Hopefully these jurors, and those that support this verdict, will understand the next time they call 911 and get a busy signal.

 

The cops didn't cause his death and the jury knew this and didn't care. More below.

That's a good defense (they did call an ambulance). I do bet your average cop is trained in CPR, which they didn't even try to do. Chauvin did say something to the effect that he followed procedure when confronted with an angry mob, which was there. Given that the mob was angry as they wanted Chauvin to do something kinda undermines that defense.

ITMT: I do hear police are so frustrated they are leaving the job in droves.