Atheist prayers can be barred by House chaplain, appeals court says

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Bluesguy, Apr 21, 2019.

  1. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Hmmmm several issues here.
    Two stories this week that appeared on Drudge that tie in one the rising numbers of "non-religious" persons and that atheist now outnumber Catholics

    So one of the defenses of government and religious intermingling has been all beliefs are represent. Clearly not here. This is representing some religious establishments over others. And I include atheism in "religious establishment" because one of the arguments presented to atheist is that there view is a religion. It's argued on this board that atheism is just as much a religion as Christianity.

    So either way isn't this a act of discrimination and either all such "prayer" must be banned or all such "prayer" be allowed? Has the court established that atheisim is NOT a religion blowing all those arguements it is?

    Atheist prayers can be barred by House chaplain, appeals court says

    The House chaplain scored a legal victory on Good Friday, when a federal appeals court ruled he could not be ordered to allow a self-described atheist to offer a secular prayer to the House of Representatives.

    The U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit sided with Rev. Patrick J. Conroy, in his official capacity as the House chaplain, and the chamber itself in litigation brought by Dan Barker, co-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation and a former minister. Barker alleged Conroy improperly rejected a request to have him serve as guest chaplain....

    ....“To resolve this case, however, we need not decide whether there is a constitutional difference between excluding a would-be prayer-giver from the guest chaplain program because he is an atheist and excluding him because he has expressed a desire to deliver a nonreligious prayer. Even though we accept as true Barker’s allegation that Conroy rejected him ‘because he is an atheist,’” Tatel wrote, “The House’s requirement that prayers must be religious nonetheless precludes Barker from doing the very thing he asks us to order Conroy to allow him to do: deliver a secular prayer.”
    http://www.rollcall.com/news/hoh/house-chaplain-not-allow-atheist-prayers-federal-appeals-court-says
     
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  2. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    I don't quite understand all of this.
    Are you saying that atheism or catholicism or something else is represented over/under others?
    What exactly is an atheist prayer? Is "I hope you have a good day" an atheist prayer?

    I assume this pertains to US only? Googling house chaplain seems to suggest that that's a term for a specifically US thing.

    US courts have established that atheism is to be counted as a religion for the purposes of the first amendment, and banning/allowing of prayer (whatever that might mean) seems to be first amendment business to me.
     
  3. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Who or what would an atheist pray to, just out of interest!
     
  4. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    The lower Court Ruling is based entirely upon a DISCRIMINATORY House of Representatives Rule that "all prayers must be religious".

    Since the SCOTUS has ruled that Atheism is to be treated as a religion for the purposes of the 1st Amendment then the lower court ruling is a violation of the SCOTUS ruling since it is DISCRIMINATING against Atheism by narrowly interpreting religion to EXCLUDE Atheism.

    So let's take this a little further and assume that it ends up in the SCOTUS in due course. We already know that we have a BIASED rightwing court so one would presume that they would uphold the lower court ruling and thus set the precedent that the Federal government is ALLOWED to DISCRIMINATE on the basis of religion. That this VIOLATES the 5th and 14th Amendments would not be of any concern to them given their fundamentalist agenda.

    However that assumes that Roberts wants another BLACK MARK on the already badly besmirched reputation of HIS court.

    He might rule AGAINST the lower court for no other reason than that he wants his reputation preserved.

    To allow the House to DISCRIMINATE on the basis of religion is a precedent that would have far reaching impacts all across the nation. To allow it do so just because it is a "co-equal" branch of government would be a FAILURE of the concept of Checks and Balances.

    In essence this case could be the deciding factor between our nation turning into a 3rd world theocracy or upholding the Principles on which the nation was originally founded.

    Perhaps Atheists should "pray" for Roberts to make a "wise" decision.

    SCNR ;)
     
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  5. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Which is why the prayer is in "". A moment of reflection or a reading from the DoI about the purpose of the government and the job at hand. A simple statement about moral and ethical virtue asking the members all come together for the good of the country, lots of things.
     
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  7. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    "and that atheist now outnumber Catholics " as in there are more people who identify as atheist than as Catholics

    A moment of reflection and why the word prayer is in "".

    This court said atheism is not a religion which it is not. The purpose of the first amendment is to keep religious faith and government separate. The founding fathers had witnessed what occurred in Europe and England when the to are intertwined. But further to the Constitution, the Constitution prohibits a religious test to hold office in the government. This is a religious test for the opening innovation of the sessions of the Congress.
     
  8. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Atheism doesn't quack. It is a philosophy at best but lacks the faith in a supreme or supernatural being and faith in such to be a "religion".
     
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  9. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Courts have ruled for instance that a religious display can be planted on public grounds but only if ALL views are represented the most classic case being religious symbols during Christmas in front of pubic buildings and in public parks must also allow of secular displays.
     
  10. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    Atheism is not even a philosophy.
    It is just a disbelief in a God.
    I am sure some people can, and do bring it to a higher level, but that is not what makes them an atheist.
     
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  11. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Donor

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    There are 2-3 extreme Christians who argue this on this board and they have constantly been shown and told they are mistaken by the Atheists, who actually know.
     
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  12. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Agree in the general sense. There are some specific atheist "views" such as "secular humanism" where writers and speakers try to define in some orderly manner.

    The thing those of religious faith tend to not recognize is that there is not much difference morally or ethically between the beliefs of an atheist and a person of religious faith. It's just that atheist do nor require a super-natural being to enforce those beliefs.
     
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  13. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Donor

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    Secular Humanism is not so much Atheism as simply being responsible and thoughtful as a person and species. If by chance the ideals had been enacted by the Religious and Government, most of the world problems would not even exist.
     
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  14. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Isn't that what morals and ethics are all about?

    It's like when I ask someone ranting how we are a Christian Nation because we are founded on Christian principles and morals and ethics and I ask what are these Christian principles and morals and ethics you claim to hold that I do not.....................I end up with crickets.
     
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  15. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    Are they Christian crickets.
     
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  16. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Donor

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    Unfortunately, the ethics and moral standards of secular humanism make many Christians uncomfortable because while they claim much the same they and their leadership often have trouble adhering. Atheists do as well but are free to admit it and can still be accepted.
     
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  17. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    Yes, I get that, but I don't see how that implies that one of those are over- or underrepresented.
    Sounds weird, so a Christian who's in a moment of reflection is conducting an atheist prayer?
    Judging from the article, it seems to me the problem is more with the word "invocation". Certainly, it is not clear from the article that the problem lies with whether atheism is a religion.
     
  18. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    I think you have confused yourself and if you read the OP you will see where the court specifically injected is atheism is or is not a religion into the argument it is the key to the decision.
     
  19. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    and has a megaton of faith in the natural being as its own god, and sets its philosophy around the premise of human secularism which hijacked the morals of the G/gods and now pretend they are their own creation.


    by their own admission!


    QUOTE="Derideo_Te, post: 1070481480, member: 69526"][​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
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  20. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    [/QUOTE]
    So fakoagnos do not understand humour!
     
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  21. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    indeed, its very humorous :lol:
    thats why I pointed it out
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  22. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    they said no such thing, thats your personal bent not what they said:

    atheism is to be counted as a religion for the purposes of the first amendment

    why?

    because by your own admission:

    The purpose of the first amendment is to keep religious faith and government separate.

    Obviously they recognize the fact that atheists have religious faith there are no G/gods.


     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  23. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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  24. Swensson

    Swensson Devil's advocate

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    That doesn't seem obvious to me. It seems to me more likely that they recognise that atheists are susceptible to violations of rights in a way similar to Christianity etc..
     
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  25. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    But you missed the real joke, which is if you are agnostic as you claim to be, then every point you make about atheists applies to you! Hoho!
     
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