Biden: America will be a beacon of hope for LGBTQ rights again

It not "opinion" It is facts. Facts that you can't refute.

 

The OP's citation discusses unjust attacks. There are already laws in place that make it illegal to unjustly attack anyone. Does the LGBTQ community need special laws? Equality means equal, not special. The laws against unjust attacks on non-LGBTQ people are also against unjust attacks of LGBTQ people. Are you saying that LGBTQ people deserve special treatment over the masses? So is it equality that is being sought, or is it actually special treatment that is being sought?

 

For the record, hate crime laws do not afford anyone special protection. They do not specify that you may not attack an LGBT person. They state that anyone who attacks another on the basis of sexual orientation, gender identity along with various other characteristics is subject to enhanced penalties. Those enhanced penalties are justified because an attack on someone based on who or what they are is an attack on the entire community that the victim is a member of. . If a trans person attacked a cisgender person, white making disparaging remarks about her gender identity it is still a hate crime. Everyone-all victims - are in fact treated equally. It is the perpetrator who is treated differently based on motive.

 

Sorry not interested in huffpost's "Facts,"

 

That's cool, but I just don't see that the attacks are different. An attack is an attack. If a person attacks me, why would they deserve a lighter sentence than if that same person attacked an LGBTQ citizen? I just want us all to be treated and protected equally.

What you are saying is that as long as you attack someone in your own identity group, then you deserve a lighter sentence, but if you attack someone outside your identity group, you will get harsher punishment. That just doesn't make sense. If a cisgender person attacks me, I want them to get just as harsh a punishment as if he attacked a transgender person. Why would it be any different? Why would the law be set up to discourage attacks against transgenders more than they discourage attacks against me?

Basically, if a person attacks a transgender, it is an attack on the whole community, but if they attack me, it is only an attack against me?

 

You don't seem to get it. A person can be charged with a hate crime if it can be shown that were motivated by hate based on gender identity, sexual orientation as well as race, religion, national origin , etc

Secondly, such and attack is an attack against all members of that group. I spreads fear in intimidation beyond the immediate victim, and therefor is considered more serious.

You know most such laws initially only covered race, religion, national origin. Gender gender identity, and sexual orientation were added later as we became aware of those issues. Would you also have a problem with a Muslim who attacks Christians being charged with a hate crime?

 

Your choice. Facts can be very helpful sometimes

 

It's just a hatchet job to try and show Trump to be dangerous to LGBT.

But the people that pose the biggest danger are Democrats because they don't seem to understand Islam. I remember Democrats almost unanimously calling me islamophobic because of the way as long as gay people.

 

Oh common! Not that meme again. How many instances have there been of Muslims-in this country -attacking LGBT people? One disturbed fool in Fla. a while back-that's how many . What Muslim lawmakers and officials back are working to roll back legal rights? This is not Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia. It is very divisive and dangerous to paint it as Gays vs Islam, as it is to paint it as gays vs Christian. There are gay Christians and Gay Muslims, and not all Muslims and not all Christians are bigots.

 

first people in other countries are people too and the only countries we really see exterminating gay people are Muslim countries.

That's the hate that's the hate you want Republicans to be and they're just not.

and people being thrown off of cliffs. Exactly how the Quran prescribes.

what is Trump doing to roll back legal rights? he's trying to ban people from those countries coming here. And Democrats obstructing him as much as they could. They are not my friend.

You people can't honestly discuss this topic.

Islam absolutely is bigotry. Notice I didn't say all Muslims or Muslims at all.

Islam absolutely is against gay people they throw them off cliffs exactly as prescribed in the Quran.

If you could show me in the Vatican weather throwing gays off cliffs then you could compare it to Christianity.

You are an absolute denial about this. Because you want your tribe to be right there not. Brooke cosying up with the only people on the planet that want to exterminate gay people.

I don't buy the platitudes. I'm sorry I'm skeptical of people who are apologetic for the only people that want to exterminate gays.

I won't say that you're my enemy but you're making excuses for my enemy.

 

Yes I would.

Equality means equality. An unjust attack is an unjust attack, regardless of the motives. I can understand and accept that you think differently, but in my ideal world, punishments for any unjust attack would be very harsh, regardless of who the victim is. You are saying that an unjust attack against LGBTQ citizens is worse than an unjust attack against a non-LGBTQ citizen. Well, it isn't. Of course, that is my opinion - but also, from the standpoint of equality, it sure seems to me that you want special laws that favor certain identity groups. If a group wants to be equal, then be equal. Seeking special treatment under the law is not seeking equality. Do you realize that when a group wants equality, but then lobbies for special treatment, that many people view that as hypocrisy? And then that lessens the support from other groups?

If you want harsher penalties for an unjust attack against LGBTQ citizens, why wouldn't you want harsher punishment for unjust attacks against anyone, regardless of motivation? I'm all for harsher penalties against criminals, let's make it across the board though.

 

Good Grief, You get yourself worked up over this! Chill already. Others may not throw gas off of roof tops, but they have a knack for driving them to self destructive behaviors by discrimination, marginalization, and shaming. Is that really a lesser evil? Think about it

 

You Said: "You are saying that an unjust attack against LGBTQ citizens is worse than an unjust attack against a non-LGBTQ citizen." What !!?? No. I never said that! It appears that you have a serious problem with reading comprehension or feel the need to resort to straw man logical fallacies. I am saying that ANY crime motivated by hate , against ANYONE is a more serious crime than, shall we say, a routine street mugging.

Again, LGBT people are not seeking special treatment. I provided a factual and logical explanation of why that is not the case , but you keep repeating the same thing over and over again while disregarding the points that I have made such as how a crime motivated by hate of a group-any group- is more serious than other crimes and should be treated that way.

I made my case for hate crime laws with facts and logic. You have failed to make a counter argument based on a premise that supports your conclusion. The only pfremis that you presented was the poorly constructed claim that these laws bestow special rights on certain groups- a claim that I proved false. Therefor your so called argument is also a non-sequitur logical fallacy.

My work is done here. I will not waste my time and beat my head against the wall trying to get through to you!!

 

I'm not worried about street gangs of Republicans coming to attack me that's not a real thing.

A right I am worried about losing is the right to own a firearm, and the ability to carry it. That is an anti-gay policy exclusively from the Democrats.

Armed gays don't get bashed.

So am I going to vote for the party that is actively trying to take away my rights the Democratic Party? Or am I going to vote for the party that a handful of the people within it not the president thinks that gay shouldn't be allowed to get married even though they can?

What really is the lesser of two evils? The party that wants me defenseless if that cartoonish Boogeyman of the Republican Street gang decides to attack? Or the party where couple of people think my relationship is sinful?

I think it's pretty obvious.

 

Don't run away yet, dang it.

How about this...

I will bet that I actually have a harsher stance on perpetrators of crimes against LGBTQ than you do. Here is my stance:

Anyone who commits an unjust attack on an LGBTQ citizen that causes significant bodily injury should get the death penalty. (Note: the definition of "significant bodily injury" isn't the point here)

How do you feel about that? Would you support it?

 

Out of curiosity where do you live? What part of the country? What state? If you feel comfortable answering what city?

I live in Houston Texas.

 

I appreciate that sentiment, that there's people out there looking out for gay people but no. I disagree. If you come in an unjust attack on a gay person I don't care if it's because they're gay or because you wanted their money or because you didn't like their t-shirt. you should be treated exactly the same as anybody else who attacked anybody else.

I want to be treated equally. of course this means I don't want to be discriminated against in law or policy, but it also means I don't want to be put on a pedestal.

One of the reasons why I really don't like the way a lot of people on the left view me is because they want to treat me unequally. In giving me special protections. I don't need special protection.

I really do appreciate the sentiment I'm glad there's people out there that really do care. But the punishment should fit the crime not the victim.

 

see I'm against hate crime legislation. Because it's not about the crime it's about what the person was thinking when they committed the crime. so it's up front and I think going down the road of thoughtcrime is a dangerous path.

This is one of the reasons why I'm not a Democrat. I don't think that it's right to give someone a greater sentence because of something they thought.

See I don't think they are justified. Or at least I don't agree with the justification. Any crime where there's an attack that leaves the victim injured or dead is an attack on the community. That's why the community creates courts and police departments to deal with this.

The only difference between an assault that's a hate crime and assault that's not is what the perpetrator thought.

Therefore it is an extended penalty because of wrong think. Argument against the punishment of so-called thought crimes.

 

Morris County New Jersey . A very nice area that has a mix of rural, suburban small to medium sized towns that are quite diverse in terms of ethnicity and minority populations in general .Look up Morristown, Denville and Madison as examples We have few problems with hate and bigotry.

We live in one of many lake communities in Northern NJ. It was established as a summer get away for people from the cities around 1945. It is also known as one of the few such communities that welcomes Jewish refugees after WW2 and there is still an Orthodox presence. We also have middle eastern people and yes, gay and lesbian families. Everyone coexists peacefully. It is an example of how things can be and should be.

What else would you like to know?

 

You're entitle to your opinion, but it is not a "thought crime" if someone is verbally or otherwise expressing hatred and bigotry in the course of a crime. You seem desperate to justify your position and you have yet to acknowledge my point that LGBT people have not asked for or received preferential treatment

 

See above.

 

I was getting west coast. I remember driving through new Jersey it was a nice place mostly.

I live in Texas, though Houston is extremely diverse I've been many other places in Texas. Very rural and small consecutive Christian communitys around loads of people that likely don't agree with my sexual orientation. I've never encountered any homophobia in the red heart of this red state even when I'm walking around in public holding my husband's hand or kissing.

The only time I ever experience anything was in Austin a lady wigged out on me for being gay in front of her kids. But she was just being rude. That's it. So I don't know where this anti gay sentiment is that you are talking about.

Maybe you just make assumptions because you live in new Jersey and don't really know much about life in other places.

 

Good grief! I don't run away. I am here to respond if and when you have something rational and reasonable to contribute. The death penalty? Really?

Do you realize that in the course of the day, you went from saying that LGBT people should not get special treatment to saying that "an unjust attack on an LGBTQ citizen that causes significant bodily injury should get the death penalty"?. With that you have forfeited any and all credibility that you might have had

 

Thanks for sharing. I am happy that you have a good and comfortable life. I have lived in other parts of the country but that was a long time ago. But, what assumptions do you think that I'm making?

 

Yes it is a thoughtcrime. You are allowed to be a bigot. Just like you're allowed to think whatever you want.

Punishing people more harshly because of their bigoted views is absolutely a thought crime that's not an opinion.

They should be punished for their crimes and it should be enough.

Why do I need to acknowledge your point?