Biden to impose $200 Gun Tax

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by TheAngryLiberal, Nov 23, 2020.

  1. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    You said:


    Please tell us what victims you want compensated. It was your idea. Hopefully you understand your idea. Go...
     
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  2. Vernan89188

    Vernan89188 Well-Known Member

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    Its self explanatory.
    I cant really dumb it down any further for you unless you give me a scenario.
    What else could it possibly mean from what I wrote?
    Victims.
    vic·tim
    /ˈviktəm/

    Learn to pronounce

    noun
    noun: victim; plural noun: victims
    a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action.
    "victims of domestic violence"
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  3. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    It is not self explanatory. Tell us specifically what victims you want compensated. You give us a scenario. LOL
     
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  4. Vernan89188

    Vernan89188 Well-Known Member

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    That wont work, you are the one against the idea.
     
  5. Jestsayin

    Jestsayin Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Maybe you should entertain the thought that Americans and their love of guns and willingness to fight prevented you from paying for your morning bangers and tea with Deutsche Marks.
     
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  6. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    No. I’m trying to get you to describe the idea so I can make up my mind. You refuse to give details of your idea. Why? I can’t oppose something you can’t explain or describe in detail.
     
  7. Vernan89188

    Vernan89188 Well-Known Member

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    So you would consider a tax on listed guns?
    Well iv learned once the sale is made to stop talking.
    There are not many other details to give until scenarios unfold.
     
  8. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    I’m considering your compensation idea. I can’t consider the OP plan seriously for the reasons I already listed. It isn’t possible. It would take over 200 years minimum to process applications. There’s no way all those rifles and magazines could be kept and used in compliance with NFA law even if tax stamps were issued.


    I am interested now in your proposal to compensate a demographic you can’t describe in detail. There must be some reason you are unwilling to be transparent about who would be compensated. You make a case who should be compensated and then we’ll worry about funding it. Go...
     
  9. Vernan89188

    Vernan89188 Well-Known Member

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    Someone breaks into a poorly guarded gun shop steals guns then goes on a killing spree then commits suicide.
    The survivors should have a fund to draw from to assist with funeral expenses, help with life insurance lawyers, and other issues that derive from having the prime breadwinner taken from their lives.
    The owner of the gun shop has no insurance, or they are just denied.

    Thats a scenario i can think of when the government should step in.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  10. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    I am also against the idea because once again we are only doing this to firearms when other manufacturers don't get that same treatment. There is one pretty common thing in particular that causes way more harm and death to American citizens every year than guns yet we don't get to hold "them" accountable for the actions of the operator. Vehicles.

    I've been in 3 accidents in my life and one in particular nearly 20 years ago would have cost me my life in a head on collision on the highway if I hadn't swerved and rear ended the car in front of me instead. A drunk driver driving a white Ford F-150 was barreling down the wrong side of the highway doing about 60mph, I swerved out of the lane and the car in front of me slammed on the brakes and I smashed into the back of him. Better than death I suppose. We both filed the police reports and gave our statements and that truck was found and driver arrested later that night. The PERSON driving that truck was held accountable for driving recklessly while intoxicated. I am not legally allowed to sue Ford for compensation nor can I legally sue Anheuser Busch for that incident. I also received no compensation from the government from their alcohol taxes or license and registration taxes either. All I got was insurance that I pay into anyway and that was it. Plenty of states tax alcohol and other forms of "sin tax" yet victims of alcohol misuse don't get compensated from that pool of money being collected by the government. The government collects hundreds of millions if not billions in tax revenue from licenses and registration and in some states "vehicle inspections". Victims of car accidents don't get government compensation from those pools of money the government collects for "allowing" you to operate vehicles on their public roads.

    So if the government doesn't compensate me when a drunken idiot nearly kills me and causes me to total my vehicle and injure me then why should they compensate me if somebody takes their AR-15 and shoots me with it? The government doesn't even step in and compensate me if the idiot that hits me doesn't have insurance, "uninsured motorist" is something I have to specifically pay extra for on my own insurance if I want to get covered for that.

    As I've stated before I am fine with stuff like this as long as it's treated equally across the board. If I can't sue Ford when I get hit my an F-150 then I can't sue Colt if I get shot by an AR-15. If the government doesn't want to pay me out of it's pool of vehicle based taxes when I get injured or killed by a vehicle then it shouldn't pay me by taxing firearms if I get shot by one. Now if the government wants to make a new proposal that it'll start directly compensating citizens who become victims of the misuse of products that are taxed out of the pool of money garnered from said taxes then I'll be willing to entertain this idea. Right now my state government is proposing a statewide alcohol tax increase for revenue purposes, I'm fine with that as long as the next time someone in this state is injured or killed in any way related to alcohol they are directly compensated from that new pool of money the government just earned from doubling the taxes on booze. If not, then I'm not supporting taxes on guns for that purpose.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
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  11. Vernan89188

    Vernan89188 Well-Known Member

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    But, see the difference is for vehicles you need a license. And insurance is mandatory just for that purpose. Liability. If a dealership gives an unlicensed driver a car, then they go out and cause a 100 car pileup, taking lives Im pretty sure the dealership would be held liable. Also if that driver came from a bar, the bar is held liable.

    When something happenes its also your insurance that pays out when you harm someone else. You have extra uninsured motorist coverage as well, which i think is mandatory.
    Without a tax, we would need to have something comparable to that for gun owners in my opinion. Because when not used recreational, and used as intended they are designed to take ones life, or disable them. And most of the time the user is not insured to pay for the damage they cause...and just sending them to jail or hope they commit suicide after does little for the survivors.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  12. 557

    557 Well-Known Member

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    Ahhhh. Subsidizing crime and incompetence by taxing law abiding citizens. That’s kind of what I expected but was hoping to be surprised. Why tax mags and semiautomatic rifles? Why not gummy bears or monster drinks?
     
  13. Vernan89188

    Vernan89188 Well-Known Member

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    How is that subsidizing crime? Red states do have sin tax.
    I knew you would get confused is why I told YOU to come up with a scenario.
    Im just not against the idea is all.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  14. Nightmare515

    Nightmare515 Ragin' Cajun Staff Member Past Donor

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    The difference is also that vehicles are not Constitutionally protected Rights, firearms are. And yes while you need a license to operate a vehicle on public roads as well as insurance you don't need a license nor insurance to consume alcohol. The dealership may be held liable if they let you drive off the lot without having insurance but I can't be held liable if I sell you my car and you drive off and kill somebody without having insurance. Same thing with alcohol, sure if the bar lets you drive off drunk and injure or kill somebody then yes they MAY be held responsible (not always) but if I purchase a six pack from the grocery store then drink it and go out driving and kill somebody the grocery store cannot be held liable for that. The store also cannot be held liable if I drink their booze and decide to give some to my underage kids or something, or if I get drunk and decide to walk outside and assault the neighbor.

    All of this sort of stuff is broadly covered under medical insurance which, since Obamacare, is pretty much mandatory to have if you exist in the US. And folks misusing things and causing harm to others is covered under the ability to sue them for it. If we try to go down this path then it's a never ending rabbit hole. As you stated before, virtually anything can be "weaponized" and if we are in the business of providing a way for victims of injury or death to be compensated then we need to be fair across the board. In the US knives and other cutting instruments are used 4x as often to kill other people than rifles of any type, including semi auto ones. And blunt force objects are used slightly more than rifles as well. Cutting instruments are designed to kill things, that was the weapon or choice for that purpose for thousands of years prior to the widespread use of gunpowder, and even today with things like AR-15s on the market knives are still used 4x as often to kill than those are resulting in 1400+ homicides for knives at 350+ for rifles annually.

    So if we are going to require insurance or a tax or something for victim compensation purposes then we need to be both fair and logical across the board. I can go to the sporting goods store and purchase a baseball bat and decide to go bash my neighbors head in with it, should I be required to own some form of compensation insurance prior to purchasing a blunt object like a bat? Remember, stuff like hammers and bats literally are used in more homicides in the US than rifles including the semi-auto version. Same with knives, should I be required to have compensation insurance prior to purchasing a knife? I can use it to cut my carrots or stab you to death, and based on raw data stabbing you to death with a knife is done 4x as often as shooting you to death with a semi auto rifle in the US.

    So if the real end goal is to provide some sort of compensation for the victims then we need to leave emotion out of the equation and look at the raw statistics. 4x more Americans are stabbed to death each year than are shot and killed by rifles and slightly more are bludgeoned to death and nearly double are simply beaten to death with one's hands and/or feet. So if we want to mandate some sort of insurance or tax for victims of things that others can use to hurt you then it makes logical sense to start with the one's that are actually used to hurt people the most. From this standpoint it doesn't make logical sense to require liability insurance for the thing ranked 7th overall in homicide weapons of choice in America. Based on this reasoning and last years FBI crime statistics, liability insurance for "assault rifles" would help compensate about 360 people. Meanwhile the families of the 1400+ Americans stabbed to death or the nearly 400 beaten to death with bats and hammers receive nothing because we aren't requiring liability insurance for those things. So what about those families? What do they get? Or are we operating under the assumption that getting shot to death with a 5.56 round from an AR-15 and that family losing their prime breadwinner is somehow worse than if said prime breadwinner is stabbed to death instead? Which is in fact 4x more likely to happen to them.

    On a fair note we can even stick to the fact that guns kill people often and should be treated "special". This makes this entire argument even more outrageous then because when talking about the the leading weapon of choice then handguns beat out everything else by a significant order of magnitude and they beat out rifles, including semi-auto ones, by a factor of 17x. So if we want to tax or require liability insurance to own AR-15s then why in the hell is there no $200 tax proposal to own a handgun when handguns were used in 6300+ murders last year and rifles were used in 364...

    Out of all the weapons Americans use to kill each other every year rifles are literally ranked number 7. Why exactly are we going after them first again? So we are making proposals to help approximately 364 people per year while telling the other 7100+ folks families' who were killed by other weapons too bad if you wanted compensation then your breadwinner should have been one of the rare people shot by one of the scary looking military guns instead. That makes no rational sense.
     
  15. Vernan89188

    Vernan89188 Well-Known Member

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    Because unlike everything else on that list, when used as intended they cause massive harm to massive amounts of people. Its their stated purpose. Thus they need a stated tax, for the stated harm they are intended to cause. And remember guns arnt in the constitution. But basic hand guns, shotguns etc are intended for self protection, even i think they should get a pass..Easily modifiable weapons designed to fit high capacity magazines..not so much.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  16. Vernan89188

    Vernan89188 Well-Known Member

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    And another thing.
    Lemme know when gummy bears, or monster drinks when used as intended are able to take multiple lives in a short amount of time.
    I figured you would call victims criminals.
     
  17. Bearack

    Bearack Well-Known Member

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    Over 13% of auto accidents are from uninsured motorist. There were nearly 40,000 car fatalities in 2019. On average, 8,400 of the annual fatalities are from unlicensed drivers. That means you stand a 22% of dying from an unlicensed, uninsured motorist while your chances of dying from a long rifle is .01%

    The difference of you absurd argument is that the vast majority of law abiding citizens will not unlawfully shoot random people, Even in good shoots, if you think you are not liable, you are insane. Many cases were people lawfully defended themselves, however lost in Civil court.

    And if you get hit by an uninsured motorist and you do not have uninsured insurance... Good luck collecting!
     
  18. Vernan89188

    Vernan89188 Well-Known Member

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    Cars do get taxed, and their intended purpose is not harm. Why should guns get a pass? If not insured you are required to carry an sr22. So they do have a means to collect liability.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  19. Bearack

    Bearack Well-Known Member

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    Car's get taxed to operate, i.e. gas tax and tax to get new tags to operate your vehicle on the road. You can park your car in the garage and you are not taxed to have your car.
     
  20. Vernan89188

    Vernan89188 Well-Known Member

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    Thats fine by me.
    If you have pieces of an automatic gun in storage, sure you dont gotta pay a tax on it.
     
  21. Bearack

    Bearack Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  22. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    They are taxed when they are used on public property - not for ownership, not for possession, and not for use on private property.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
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  23. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    ^^
    This statement is false.
     
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  24. Grau

    Grau Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Firstly, AR-15s are not made with the intent for the user commit murder. Simply read the instruction manual that comes with one.

    Secondly, $1.00 worth of gasoline(1), a simple home made bomb(2) or any vehicle(3) can be used to take multiple lives at any time.

    If a determined killer is intent on killing several several people at a time, he'll find a way to do it. It's that simple.


    (1) "Happy Land fire"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_fire

    EXCERPT "González went to an Amoco gas station, then returned to the establishment with a plastic container with $1 worth of gasoline.[2][4] He spread the fuel at the base of a staircase, the only access into the club, and then ignited the gasoline.[5]

    Eighty-seven people died in the resulting fire."CONTINUED


    (2) "Ninety years ago, a school in Bath, Michigan was rigged with explosives in a brutal act that stunned the town"
    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/hist...chool-massacre-180963355/#KSipwm4IUrIbB9uc.99


    EXCERPTS "In the end 44 people died, 38 of them students. It wasn’t the first bombing in the country’s history—at least eight were killed during the Haymarket Square rally in Chicago in 1886, and 30 when a bomb exploded in Manhattan in 1920. But none had been so deadly as this, or affected so many children."CONTINUED


    (3) "9 dead as van strikes crowd of pedestrians in Toronto"
    https://nypost.com/2018/04/23/van-strikes-crowd-of-pedestrians-in-toronto/
     
  25. Vernan89188

    Vernan89188 Well-Known Member

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    No its not.
     

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