Brexit Deal Agreed Between UK & EU / Can UK cope without Northern Ireland?

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by The Rhetoric of Life, Oct 17, 2019.

  1. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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  2. truth and justice

    truth and justice Well-Known Member

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    I would say that the vote was predominantly about having full control of the borders as could be seen by the many images of asylum seekers, eu immigrants and refugees that was the basis of the leave campaign
     
  3. allegoricalfact

    allegoricalfact Well-Known Member

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    Life ain't simple and politics even less so.

    We are embedded in the Empire - An insidious bureaucratic monster of an Empire - the tangled web of which can not be easily escaped from.

    It is hard for anyone outside it to understand really - it is hard for most of us to understand - I shall give one example. Our local govs express function is --- look https://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n24/tom-crewe/the-strange-death-of-municipal-england
    He doesn't mention the EU and I don't have time to explain what happened so it isn't a perfect article but you get the gist - so when the EU brings in Service Directives and the like making it illegal not to put all services out for tender in the EU then our councils can no longer a) perform their express functions b) collect any monies to put back into the project which has left the people bereft ----- so much much more but we cannot put humpty back together again in 5 mins.

    They own our Railways now - all of our utilities and so on - they plunder each nation in turn - run things which are beneficial to them their way and the rest just flounders because the old systems are detached from each other. - do you see? It was never about Trade - never.
     
  4. allegoricalfact

    allegoricalfact Well-Known Member

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    There is a constitutional question there --- the franchise must be consulted over matters pertaining to the giving over of sovereignty to a foreign power ( outside having been conquered in war) (William and Mary Treaty). We were not asked in 1972 because we would have said no. Guggenheim were employed to persuade us to vote the right way for the retrospective referendum in 1975 - in which they downright lied.

    Every Party in their manifestos promised to abide by the vote of the people.

    Together or apart those two matters made the vote binding
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2019
  5. allegoricalfact

    allegoricalfact Well-Known Member

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    I know ---- ooohhhhh people are angry now! Boris is right to push for a fast election but too many are saying they will vote for Farage ffs! Idiots will split the vote and deliver us our worst nightmare lol

    If Corbyn gets in because of a split vote - Farage will become the most hated man ever in our history - loooooool - that is enough comedy for the day - I must get some work done!
     
  6. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    Huh?
     
  7. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    I don't think you quite understand the point you're trying to debate since I'm not talking about dual citizens, I'm talking about foreign citizens who aren't duel.
    Why should some EU citizen who isn't British vote in a UK election? Why should a British citizen who isn't duel citizen vote in an Irish election?
     
  8. The Rhetoric of Life

    The Rhetoric of Life Banned

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    @alexa, unlike you, I'm just British, not a duel citizen of anywhere else, and I'd probably get the vote if I moved to Ireland, yet I'm not Irish.

    Same with someone who's Irish (or other EU national) if they lived in the UK.


    Of course duel citizens can vote where ever they're registered. Non duel foriegn citizens getting the vote should be stopped as this is foreign meddling.
    If you want to vote, became a citizen first.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2019
  9. allegoricalfact

    allegoricalfact Well-Known Member

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    They don't vote in GEs.
     
  10. philosophical

    philosophical Active Member

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    I recognise that in your opinion the vote was predominately about borders.
    However others would say it was predominately about trade, others still would say it was predominately about sovereignty, for others still it was about 'feeling' more British and less European, for a minority it was about xenophobia, and for others they may not have known what it was all about.
    The interpretations of meaning has sustained the brexit industry for over three years, and there is no one answer beyond the simple word 'leave'. Simple but deadly actually, because that word as it applies in Ireland on the land border is where all the difficulties are.
    Until brexit winners come to terms with that stark reality, that leave means leave means not staying joined, then there will be no resolution. It won't be because of the EU, remoaners, or MP's, it will be because the brexit voters didn't think things through, and now there is an upsurge of 'operation blame' from brexiteers in order to avoid what is essentially their responsibility.
     
  11. allegoricalfact

    allegoricalfact Well-Known Member

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    Excuse me? I mean huh? Parliament were given a mandate by the electorate. All members of said Parliament promised in the manifestos, to abide by said mandate. They haven't done so. Blame? - It isn't all about blame, we don't trust politicians anyway. It is a matter of us not having sovereignty - the proof, so far, that Parliament has none and must listen to Brussels as they are doing now to thwart the will of the sovereign people..
     
  12. philosophical

    philosophical Active Member

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    Don't you think the EU are saying have your no deal brexit, but if you want a deal then the border issue must be solved, it's up to you?
    The will of the sovereign people as you put it was simply 'leave'. As I keep saying, not joined any more which means a border. The will of the sovereign people was to establish a hard border on the island of Ireland whether the sovereign people realised it or not.
     
  13. allegoricalfact

    allegoricalfact Well-Known Member

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    At the moment, due to Macron, the EU are not going to give us an extension unless a date for a GE is confirmed - Corbyn is refusing to agree to a GE unless an extension is given.

    :cool:

    The Irish question will be solved --- The DUP are having to answer to their voters too but the ERG are on board - they will sort it out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2019
  14. SkullKrusher

    SkullKrusher Well-Known Member

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    We may have to start an entire new thread on the History of Ireland :xd:
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2019
  15. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There has been much suggestion in this thread that if the Hard Brexiters do not get what they want then there will be blood on the Streets of Britain. A new study suggests this may indeed be the case - perhaps not so much on the streets and not just from hard Brexiters

    https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysi...ke-corbyn-prime-minister-as-soon-as-possible/

    Conservative supporters most believed some kind of violence was appropriate in order to leave and the Lib Dem supporters believed it was acceptable for remain.

    In Wales it was the Tories and Brexit supporters who were most likely to support violence.

    In Scotland it was just Tory supporters who thought it was worth violence Both the SNP and Scottish Lib Dems did not find it worth violence.

    Labour supporters are not mentioned. It would appear they did not express much support for violence.

    The survey however is criticized for not making it clear exactly what violence is - ok violence need not be killing but some form of violence is some form of violence.

    This is a big change in the psyche of Britain. 5-10 years ago a study was done which suggested people would accept authoritarian rule as long as it was not violent. This study suggests the attitude to violence has changed.

    The article suggests that the most important thing is to have a new election with a Government in power which can bring the country together. He sees that as Labour.
     
  16. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No, I am British.
    They only vote for local things which affect them. To suggest they should not vote on that is to desire them to be without voice.
     
  17. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    He will be more than happy to have a General Election once there is not a blade of grass left which will allow Johnson to turn that into a NO Deal exit. I notice the Brexit Party are already holloring that the deal Boris put forward is acceptable to no one.

    God help us all.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2019
  18. allegoricalfact

    allegoricalfact Well-Known Member

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    There is no such thing as a no deal Brexit and Corbyn is being very very sparing with the truth is that tired old man who has been promoted above his ability - poor old sod.

    What have you got against the ERG, who will have the back of those who are not happy with the deal? Or the DUP for that matter? Sinn Fein won't come to the table so who else is Gov supposed to talk to?
     
  19. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    rubbish
     
  20. allegoricalfact

    allegoricalfact Well-Known Member

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    Lol Brexiteers have been known to suggest 'hung drawn and quartering' as a fit response for some traitors actions 'bring back hanging' has been heard too - 'his/her head on a ***** over London bridge' as well.

    Silly article - he should look at what we have all seen - the violence of Remoaners outside Parliament not Brexiteers.
     
  21. allegoricalfact

    allegoricalfact Well-Known Member

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    Lol He was a Brexiteer for decades. As soon as they promoted him to Leader, with Militant as his body guard, he is suddenly an ardent Remoaner holding the whole country in a state of stagnation.

    My daughter thinks he is the second coming - My sister wants him to win. My nearest and dearest are snowflakes so I have some idea of his attraction in Remoaner country but to me he is a 17 yr old protester in a 70 year old body who has no sophistication and no idea how to Lead.

    My God with Diane Abbot as Shadow Home Sec - we would crumble to pieces within three months
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2019
  22. philosophical

    philosophical Active Member

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    There may not be any such thing as a no deal brexit, but there was no deal of any kind on the ballot paper.
    Brexiters Tom, Dick and Harry might have three different versions as to what might constitute a 'deal'...for example Marc Francois voted against May's deal but for Johnson's, so who is to say which 'deal' it should be?
    Nobody can know what Brexit means beyond examining the concept of leaving, which is something I say repeatedly. Leaving means not remaining joined, yet there is a 300+ mile 'join' with the EU/UK land border in Ireland.
    People are crying out for a border solution, yet after over 3 years brexiters have not come up with any solution, there is a clue there.
     
    alexa likes this.
  23. alexa

    alexa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    and we are supposed to believe Johnson and the ones crying for No Deal who are now crying for a 'clean break' believing that sounds nicer, when we discover despite there ought to be no need, never mind the expected floods this weekend, the Government has done this.

    No-deal Brexit contingency plan implemented on Kent roads
     
  24. allegoricalfact

    allegoricalfact Well-Known Member

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    Do you think that you are telling me something the whole of Britain doesn't know?

    The people gave Parliament a mandate - it was then up to Parliament to implement it for the people.

    May went to the EU as a Remainer and thus in the stance to appease - she wouldn't allow anyone else to negotiate and went alone - with disasterous results but that is what wee are stuck with, with Boris's amendments, or we shall never get out. That is why Marc Francois, Steve Baker, Bill Cash and co, even John Redford have agreed to back Boris - he has given us a way out - the only one on the horizon.

     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2019
  25. philosophical

    philosophical Active Member

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    You have highlighted the problem. The people gave Parliament a mandate to make leave happen.
    Parliament is unable to do it because it does not have the stomach for either a hard border, or the stomach to break the international treaty that is the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement. Neither does Parliament have any idea about how to deal with the sheer Geography in Ireland leaving aside the social and political implications.
    It's as if the people gave Parliament a mandate to have pregnant men. A worthy aspiration, but if is isn't practically possible what happens then?
     

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