Hamas rockets reach Jerusalem and Tel Aviv

This forum is heavily biased in favour of Israel. Does that reflect sentiment in the US as a whole?

No-one has been killed by the rocket attacks but dozens, perhaps hundreds have been killed by Jewish air attacks yet those air attacks are rarely mentioned on the forum.

 

From the people I talk to here in the States, in Liberal California I might add, they think both sides are nutts yet understand both sides as well.

They think the Israelis are heavy handed, however they know it wouldn't happen without Hamas provocation.

Most people have given up and simply don't create anymore, as I'm sure you are aware we have bigger fish to fry of our own.

 

From the best journalist in Israel Arlene Kushner

July 9, 2014

“Proportionality and Other Matters”

There is a widespread – but very erroneous – impression that if an enemy attacks, a proportional response means a nation can only return what was received and no more. That is, the mistaken impression is that if Hamas shot one rocket, we could only shoot one rocket back.

International law, however, defines proportionality very differently: it is a question of legitimate military goals and intentionality. Put very simply, we would not be restricted to only shooting one rocket back at Hamas, but rather doing what is necessary (within certain defined limits) to ensure that Hamas does not shoot any more rockets. That is a legitimate military goal.

Luis Moreno-Ocampo, who was the Chief Prosecutor at the International Criminal Court in 2003, wrote this about proportionality:

“Under international humanitarian law and the Rome Statute, the death of civilians during an armed conflict, no matter how grave and regrettable, does not in itself constitute a war crime. International humanitarian law and the Rome Statute permit belligerents to carry out proportionate attacks against military objectives, even when it is known that some civilian deaths or injuries will occur. A crime occurs if there is an intentional attack directed against civilians...or an attack is launched on a military objective in the knowledge that the incidental civilian injuries would be clearly excessive in relation to the anticipated military advantage (principle of proportionality).”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(law)#International_humanitarian_law

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The proportionality has to do with the relationship between the damage inflicted and the legitimate military goal. What must be assessed, wrote the Chief Prosecutor, is:

(a) the anticipated civilian damage or injury;
(b) the anticipated military advantage;
(c) and whether (a) was "clearly excessive" in relation to (b).

Another way of phrasing it: former president of the International Court, Rosalyn Higgins, explained that proportionality "cannot be in relation to any specific prior injury - it has to be in relation to the overall legitimate objective of ending the aggression."

http://israelisoldiersmother.blogspot.co.il/2008/12/world-of-understanding-israels.html

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The sort of bombing we are doing is entirely legitimate and proportional to our military goals of making it impossible for Hamas to launch rockets at our people. If in the process some civilians in Gaza are hit, our military action remains entirely legitimate. Do not believe otherwise. In point of fact there are bound to be civilian deaths because Hamas uses civilians as human shields and places its arsenal of weapons in civilian areas.

Were Israel to decide to carpet bomb Gaza to make Hamas stop launching rockets, that would be clearly disproportionate civilian destruction in relation to the goal of stopping Hamas. But that, of course, is something we would never, ever do. We are, in fact, extraordinarily careful to avoid civilian deaths whenever it is possible to do so. We actually place phone calls to homes, warning families to get out, before we bomb the houses.

What is not legitimate according to international law is the sort of deliberate targeting of Israeli civilians that Hamas is doing day in and day out. Here the intentionality is to hit civilians.

And yet, as we see day in and day out, the international community draws an outrageous moral equivalency between Israel’s actions and those of Hamas.

When the State Department calls on both sides to “act responsibly,” you know what a joke this is.

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But it’s actually much worse than this, as Israel is – incredibly – turned into the aggressor. As Human Rights Watch reported:

“UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon refuses to name the perpetrators of the attacks ‘from Gaza.’ No mention is made of ‘Hamas.’ And while the rockets should ‘stop,’ what is really bothering the UNSG is alleged Palestinian victims. ‘The Secretary-General is extremely concerned at the dangerous escalation of violence, which has already resulted in multiple Palestinian deaths and injuries as a result of Israeli operations against Gaza.’

”...As for the notoriously anti-Israel UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay, she had this to say: ‘From a human rights point of view, I utterly condemn these rocket attacks and more especially I condemn Israel's excessive acts of retaliation.’" (Emphasis added)


http://www.humanrightsvoices.org/site/articles/?a=8116

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I share here a video that effectively (and amusingly!) presents the situation we confront (with thanks to Raima S.)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4575217092927&set=vb.1066815202&type=2&theater

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Part of what the international community does is attempt to pin the blame for Hamas’s violence on Israel, because Israel has not attended to the “legitimate rights” of the “Palestinian people.” (As if deliberate targeting of civilians by Hamas would be acceptable even if this were the case, which it is not.)

We see this with Ban Ki-Moon, who said, "the unsustainable situation in Gaza will also need to be addressed in its political, security, humanitarian and development dimensions as part of a comprehensive solution."

Philip Gordon, a special assistant to US President Barack Obama and the White House coordinator for the Middle East, at a conference sponsored by (surprise!) Haaretz, made it clear that the Obama administration still expects a negotiated settlement between Israel and the PA, based on the ‘67 armistice line. Now he says this? Inconceivable that he ignores the current violence from Hamas, and the fact that it is part of a unity government. But there it is.

“Jerusalem,” he declared, “should not take for granted the opportunity to negotiate” a treaty with Palestinian Authority Mahmoud Abbas, who has proven to be a reliable partner.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/top-ob...ng-palestinians-sovereignty-security-dignity/

Daft. And maliced.

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So let’s take a look, just for a moment, at Fatah, which is Abbas’s party.

Palestinian Media Watch tells us that Fatah put up on its Facebook page today an announcement that:

“One god, one homeland, one enemy, one goal” unites Hamas, Fatah and Islamic Jihad.

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=11956

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While Khaled abu Toameh writes that:

“At least two Fatah armed groups announced that they had started firing rockets at the ‘settlements’ of Ashkelon and Sderot, cities inside the pre-1967 borders of Israel, with another Fatah group claiming responsibility for firing 35 rockets into Israel since Sunday.”
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4396/fatah-rockets

The use of the word “settlements” is a tip-off to the fact that Fatah considers Jewish presence even within the ‘67 armistice line to be an illegitimate “occupation,” i.e., they want it all.

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Abbas, our “reliable partner,” says Israel is committing “genocide” in Gaza. Sigh...

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The Elder of Ziyon put up a posting about “What Reporters Need to Know” during the current Gaza operation. But I think the points are so good that everyone needs to know them.

His major points:

1) It is a mistake to assume that all casualties are the result of Israeli airstrikes.

Traditionally, the number of Gaza rockets that fall short and never reach Israel, or that explode as they are fired is over 35% and sometimes as high as 80%!”

Then there are “work accidents” and civilians killed when guns are shot off during funerals.

2) It is a mistake to assume that casualties and damage are the direct result of Israeli airstrikes.

Many airstrikes hit weapons caches and explosives that cause a larger explosion than the strike itself.

3) It is a mistake to believe that casualties are civilian when they are not.

Terrorists, who are combatants, most frequently wear civilian clothing. And Hamas is eager to inflate the “civilian numbers.”

Do see the entire posting.

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.co.il/2014/07/what-reporters-need-to-know-during.html#.U7007mflrIU

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Be aware as well that pictures put up about the war in social media are sometimes deceptive: http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-28198622

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The war goes on.

They are still launching rockets at us – including at the center of the country and even farther north. Rockets have landed just south of Haifa, in Hadera, Zikhron Ya’akov (where someone was mildly hurt), Casaerea and Hof Bonim.

In some of the attacks that are farther away, Iranian long-rang missiles such as the Fajr5 and M302 are being used.

Needless to say, the south – particularly Sderot and Sha’ar Hanegev - is being hit hard.

More than 225 rockets have been fired at Israel since the beginning of the operation.

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But we are hitting hard inside of Gaza, as well.

According to Minister of Defense Moshe Ya’alon, who spoke today to Army Radio:

”We'll continue with strikes that will exact a very heavy price from Hamas. We are destroying arms, terror infrastructures, command systems, Hamas institutions, regime buildings, terrorists' houses, and killing terrorists of various ranks of command.
"We will continue to hit Hamas and other terror groups in Gaza Strip from the air, sea and ground to ensure the safety of Israel's citizens."

Saying “from the ground” obviously implies a ground operation. There are multiple hints about the fact that this is about to occur, but we’re still not there. The reserve troops still have to take their places in Judea and Samaria, to replace the regular troops who must be moved to the border with Gaza.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4540419,00.html

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The IDF spokesman said today that the next stage is being prepared and that this will be a long operation.

And then there is this astonishing statement from Intelligence Minister Yuval Steinitz:

“Despite the fact that it will be hard, complicated and costly, we will have to take over Gaza temporarily, for a few weeks, to cut off the strengthening of this terror army. If you ask my humble opinion, a significant operation like this is approaching.” (Emphasis added)

And so this sounds very serious indeed.

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But there remains unease here in Israel that the operation will be terminated before it should be, that the ground operation will never be actualized, and that talk such as Steinitz’s is simply a form of verbal saber rattling – a threat. After all, this was just his “humble opinion.”

For we have Netanyahu’s words today, after the Security Cabinet met. He is still saying, “the operation will expand and continue until the fire toward our towns stops and quiet returns." But the idea is that we are supposed to remove their capacity to hit us again! Not just make them stop now.

And there is the fact that, while we announce we have destroyed the homes of key Hamas leaders, we deliver a warning first so that families are not hit, and many of the leaders themselves are still walking this earth.

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Several reports are encouraging with regard to the concerns I’ve expressed here.

Khaled abu Toameh tells us that for all the bravado of leaders of Hamas, they are stunned by the power of Israel’s attack and reeling.

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/Hamass-distress-signals-362015

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Apparently Egypt is unlikely to mediate a ceasefire as it has in the past. This situation “comes at a time of mounting tensions between the new government in Cairo and Hamas. [Hamas backed the Muslim Brotherhood in its battle with Egyptian president Sisi.]

“‘There is no mediation, in the common sense of the word,’ said Egyptian foreign ministry spokesman Badr Abdelatty.”

And then we have this:

“A senior Hamas official pledged that militants would not ‘surrender’ in the face of the latest air strikes on Wednesday.

“There are no ceasefire talks, in the conventional sense. There are ongoing contacts. The Israelis are not interested in mediation, they are looking for surrender,’ said Osama Hamdan, who is based in Beirut.” (Emphasis added.)

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/182712#.U71erpvlrIU

This, then, may truly be an operation that is qualitatively different.

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“The Israel Air Force has destroyed more terrorist targets in Gaza over the past 36 hours than it did throughout the whole the 2012 clash with Hamas, a senior security said Wednesday.”

http://www.jpost.com/Defense/IAF-de...n-36-hours-than-in-whole-of-2012-clash-362122

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Security is on high alert because Hamas is hoping to initiate a major terror attack as a way of shifting the balance.

Yesterday five Hamas terrorists entered Israel via the Mediterranean at a beach near Ashkelon and were killed by the IDF.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/frustrated-hamas-seeks-a-quality-terrorist-attack/

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© Arlene Kushner. This material is produced by Arlene Kushner, functioning as an independent journalist. Permission is granted for it to be reproduced only with proper attribution.

If it is reproduced and emphasis is added, the fact that it has been added must be noted.


See my website at www.arlenefromisrael.info Contact Arlene at akushner18@gmail.com

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_________________

 

Proof. How do we know those accused or being seaborn commando's are seaborne commando's?

It seems like Israel can simply capture anyone, label them a terrorist, and people nod.

Disturbing.

 

We are not talking about a criminal prosecution where one is not a seaborne commando until he acts like one.

It is war. One can safely assume that during hostilities, seaborne commandos will attempt to do what they do. So they are fair game before the fact.

 

Hamas members are VERY slow learners.

 

Whats your theory here? That Israel has fired 100 rockets at itself to create a pretext for invasion?

 

Obviously you are not very happy given the fact that you entirely avoided the issue and despately tried to change the topic.　

Why don't you admit that you have nothing to say? It's ok, we already know but you might feel better about yourself.

 

Who knows. Attacking yourself in order to create the prtext for war is hardly a new thing. I don't know what happened, but I never see proof of these claims.

My first theory is that we seem to be responding largely off of allegations of terrorism. Intrestingly, this began with kidnapped Israeli's by the way, and then transitions to rocket attacks.

So...I'm full of questions.

 

Actually why don't you admit that you have not read the previous posts and the discussion with freeman.

Maybe then you might be capable of understanding whats being said

 

Nor are baseless conspiracy theories.

 

I admit, I have not read your previous conversation with free man. Now, with this out of the way, why did you avoid addressing his point about Gaza Arabs deliberately targeting civilian population?

 

I know my theory about the "Gaza rockets is a theory". How about you? How do you Know the Gaza rockets being fired by Hamas is actually th truth?

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How do you know Gaza Arab's targetted civilian troops?

 

I asked him to address what we had been previously discussing before we changed subject.

I am happy to address the subject with you.

I do not condone one rocket fired at Israel by Hamas.
I do not condone one rocket fired at Gazza by Israel

Now my analogy is this, there are 2 people throwing things at each other, I wish to stop it by persuasion. One person is huge, very fit and throwing huge great rocks, the other is small and weak and throwing tiny stones and his aim is poor.

Which one is it most important for me to stop?

 

does not the fact that you are probably the only person on the planet who is doubting that bother you? Gazans don't deny that, Hamas don't deny that, the PA does not deny that, the Arab league does not deny that...Upside down cake denies that and thinks he is making a clever argument. Sorry pal but it is not, it is childish and nonsensical.

　
　
　

 

And I don't condone people who dedicate 1 line (when pressured into corner) to condemning non-stop arab anti-Israel, anti-western terrorism and then spend the rest of their lives pretty much promoting the terrorists's agenda, excusing and justifying their actions and whitewashing their crimes

　
Your lip service is not fooling anyone.

That's an incredibly poor analogy....to begin with Israel occupies 0.15% of the Middle Eastern land, Israel is outnumbered 75:1 by arabs only, not taking hostile non-arab muslims (like Persians) into account. So idea of who is small and who is big in the conflict is completely distorted.

　
And it's the Arabs who want to wipe Israel off the map, not the other way around, it's not 2 people throwing things at each other, it's one person trying to murder another one and the victim of aggression resorting to self-defence, proactive and vigorous as it may be.

　
It's the Arabs who are the scumbags and criminals in the conflict, don't confuse the weak with the virtuos, one can easily be weak, stupid and a criminal. Israel wants to live in peace and prosper, the Arab world wants to live without Israel on the map.

 

Actually, the US, Israel, and some European countries are the only ones who tend to believe that. The rest don't believe it and actively condemn it. Hell, you can't even get US people to admit that Gaza is occupied...

 

There is nothing like a simple unequivocal answer to spark a diatribe of abuse and conjecture from an apologist.

 

What delusion. There's Palestinian people being slaughtered right now. No terrorists, just civlian women and children and homes and cafes and all you can harp on about is how Israel is the target of terrorist agenda's when you can't even prove anyone in Gaza is actually evn responsible. How do you know these attacks aren't coming from Iranians or some other group? You don't. You simply parrot pro-Israeli garbage.

Your analogy is poor. How did Britain- an island on the edge of the known world, establish a world wide empire? Sheer numbers? In war, you have what are called combat multipliers. Arms, munitions, logistics, reconaissance, etc. Israel is one of the deadliest, most modern military forces in the world. It is one of the worlds most prolific manufacturers in the world. Palestine is a large ghetto. Iraq an Iran are starving and antiquated powers...or used to be. Now Iraq is quite broken.

And they always have the full power of US military support, should any mass aggression be directed at them.

It's your image of Israel versus the Middle East that is distorted.

Virtuous? You can't be realistic. For one, their have been any number of extremist cliques in Israel promoting violence against Palestinians. The burned boy was one. They forced him to drink gasoline and set him on fire.

Israel oesn't want to live in peace. It says it wants to live in peace...right before it makes a pitch to pressure the US into committing into agressions...constantly.

You're far too deluded.

 

focus please if you can, we were discussing your insinuations that rocket attacks from Gaza are Israel's false flag ops....not even Arabs claim that.

Gaza is not occupied since Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005, every soldier and every settler left. Duh, no wonder people don't admit that. LOL

 

What are the "Arabs" claiming? I'm not claiming they are a false op, I say it's a possiblity. I say I don't know who fired the rockets. You don't either because no proof is ever offered. Just allegations and reprisals.

Focus on yourself. What is your argument? That a state be able to just run into a state and smash it whenever someone attacks it? (US and Iraq) Oddly enough, they don't seem to be concerned about the sources or places where these rockets are being launched. You don't find that odd. There just targeting peoples houses and residences and water facilties. The majority of people who have been kiled have been killed in their residences. But no one seems to be concerned about stopping the rocket fire or even locating it. They just report it's happening. No sense.

No one? You mean like the UN and the rest of the world?

http://www.ochaopt.org/

 

Yawn, not this same sh*t again, does not your side realize that you are not fooling anyone?



　


Israel does not target civilians....that being said if your government wages a non-stop terror campaign, starts a war it can't win and puts you in the line of fire, stores caches of weapons in your basement and places rocket launchers in your sun's school yard, if you don't heed repeated Israeli warnings, leaflets, phone calls and text messages to get the f*ck out of the area about to be attacked - perhaps you have no one but yourself and your terrorist government to blame?




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Yes, this was a ridiculous, baseless, absurd and childish thing to say.

 

Delusion. You can't admit you know nothing. Not even current events. Israel has already targeted civilians. It's kinda all over the news at the moments. It's in the OCHA report I just handed you. Maybe we shouldn't say targeted, huh. After all, maybe they just hit 150 Arab homes by mistake. Looked like bases, right?

Tell me, where's the proof that these weapons were in these basements? 150 basements? They weren't unwarranted attacks, there were weapons there. Probably also nuclear material and some Death Star plans.

 

There is nothing like moral equivalence between terrorists targeting civilians and self-defensive actions targeting terrorists and warning civilians in advance to stay away from targets about to be attacked.