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How To Finally Resolve the Abortion Debate

Discussion in 'Abortion' started by Meta777, Aug 4, 2018.

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  1. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    Meta777, Aug 18, 2018
    #176
  2. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    No it isn't, because women would still have that were elective abortion outlawed.
    No it doesn't, any more than the right of an adult human to life depends on what criteria one uses to define what a human being is.
    If someone knows the answer, why the hell does anyone have different definitions?
    Of course it doesn't, but the reality of what constitutes a child matters plenty; and WRT zygotes, said reality is something to be discovered, not decided.
     
    yguy, Aug 18, 2018
    #177
  3. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Why won't you answer questions in your own thread?

    YOU:"""....because part of the divide you see, is due to highly flawed arguments being used on either side."""


    So what is flawed on the side that says women have the same right to their body as everyone else?


    What other "flaws" do you see in the Pro-Choice side?
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
    FoxHastings, Aug 18, 2018
    #178
  4. Meta777

    Meta777 Moderator Staff Member

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    It presumes without any justification that a woman's right to control her body should outweigh a fetus's right to life/right not to have suffering imposed on it. In other words, it begs the question, since you seem to be putting it forth as a justification for why a woman should be allowed to abort at any point. A circular proposition, and also one which avoids addressing the actual issue of how the rights of the fetus should be balanced against the rights of the mother, by putting forth the existence of one as if to say that the other did not exist.

    Certainly though, there is a point at which the rights of an unborn child should not be thought to exist. But just as certainly there is a point at which one without rights gains them. The question I ask is where exactly is that point, or more accurately, when if ever do the rights of a fetus outweigh the rights of the mother? Again, the argument you posted here doesn't address that. Also, I think that it is a good idea to be more clear and specific as to what your conclusion is, but that's just me...

    Same reasons as above. It fails to take into account the prospect that the unborn should have rights as well,
    and provides no justification for why the rights of the mother should outweigh the rights of the fetus.

    Now, if you wanted to argue that the mother's rights should be given precedence because she is a citizen,
    and the fetus is not (as one has to be born to become a legal citizen), then that would be a different story,
    though at the same time its not really all that much more of a compelling argument,
    as it would then be an appeal to law fallacy among other issues.

    Because that... "argument" ...is straight-up circular on its face!
    And yet another appeal to law fallacy to boot...

    We're discussing here what we think the law should be,... what we think should and or should not be a crime,... so obviously attempting to justify a position by bringing up what the current law does or does not say is a crime is again an appeal to law as well as clearly circular reasoning. And in addition to that, it should also be pointed out that the current laws don't actually even allow abortion at any stage. Its prohibited in most states after week 20 or 24. So even if appeals to the law weren't consider fallacies in a discussion like this, the actual laws on the books still wouldn't support your conclusion regardless. (and again, you should really clearly spell out what the conclusion is. It makes discussion flow better) Lastly, what you posted here is also a strawman. The question has never been about whether or not women should be punished for getting pregnant. The question is at what point the rights of the fetus should be considered over the rights of the woman. Of course, if we were just talking only about whether or not abortions should be banned at week 0, then you might have more of a point, but we aren't, so in this instance, you don't.

    All the arguments you posted here are bad, but I think this one may be the worst of the bunch!

    What makes you think I can't answer questions?
    Been answering questions in this thread for several pages...

    -Meta
     
    Meta777, Aug 18, 2018
    #179
  5. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    The fetus has no rights.

    You completely ignore the pain and damage a fetus does to the woman it's in. SHE has a right not to have suffering imposed on HER!

    You ignore the fact that pregnant women do NOT, and should not, lose the right to their bodies because they are pregnant.






    The fetus does NOT have rights BUT it does have PROTECTION from 23 weeks on.




    YES, at BIRTH.




    I addressed that and it's never.





    Yes, it's you.


    So you don't believe pregnant women have rights....OK, THAT is FLAWED thinking.





    I used the term "citizen" to emphasize that Americans citizens should ALL have the same rights. You think otherwise.






    YES, banning abortion and forbidding women to have one IS punishment whether you agree or not.

    Uh, ask those who make exceptions for abortion if the woman is raped.

    They "allow" her to have an abortion but if a woman had consensual sex they want her forced to gestate as a PUNISHMENT for having consensual sex.


    An abortion because of rape is EXACTLY the same, same procedure and same outcome, as an abortion where the woman had consensual sex.....so WHY an exception for a rape victim?







    I know you think women having the same right to their own bodies everyone else has is bad.....but it's the right thing....and the crux of the abortion issue.




    IF a fetus is deemed a "person" , one with rights, THEN they should also have the same restrictions we ALL HAVE.

    No one can use another's body to sustain their life without consent....so a fetus couldn't.


    No one can harm another without their consent.....so a fetus couldn't.

    What YOU want is to give fetuses MORE rights than born women!!!!
     
    FoxHastings, Aug 18, 2018
    #180
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  6. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    What does this: ""How To Finally Resolve the Abortion Debate"""

    have to do with this : """Ranked Vote: How Should the Law Handle Abortion?"""
     
    FoxHastings, Aug 18, 2018
    #181
  7. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Questions in 186 1nd 187 haven't been answered.....
     
    FoxHastings, Aug 18, 2018
    #182
  8. delade

    delade Well-Known Member

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    The right to abort using Medical Insurance? Medicaid, Medicare, Quest, Private? What kind of Medical Insurance?

    'I can't get missed leave or maternity or else I'll lose my job so i'll abort' kind of abortion?
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
    delade, Aug 18, 2018
    #183
  9. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Questions in 186 and 187 haven't been answered.....


    That's OK, I understand, no Anti-Choicer has ever been able to answer:


    An abortion because of rape is EXACTLY the same, same procedure and same outcome, as an abortion where the woman had consensual sex.....so WHY an exception for a rape victim?


    It always stumps them :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2018
    FoxHastings, Aug 18, 2018
    #184
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  10. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    ************
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
    FoxHastings, Aug 19, 2018
    #185
  11. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Well, it's been two whole weeks.....have you resolved the abortion debate ?




    And:
    That's OK, I understand, no Anti-Choicer has ever been able to answer:


    An abortion because of rape is EXACTLY the same, same procedure and same outcome, as an abortion where the woman had consensual sex.....so WHY an exception for a rape victim?
     
    FoxHastings, Aug 19, 2018
    #186
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  12. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Some posters have to make things up because they have no facts to back up their need to destroy women's right to their own bodies.
     
    FoxHastings, Aug 19, 2018
    #187
  13. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Is the abortion debate resolved yet ?


    :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
    FoxHastings, Aug 20, 2018
    #188
  14. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    Week 12 should be the cutoff date IMO. This gives a mother plenty of time to terminate an unwanted pregnancy and gives the fetus the benefit of the doubt as to when life begins.
     
    Josephwalker, Aug 21, 2018
    #189
  15. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    "Life" began for the fetus when it was conceived.

    ...and it ends when the woman it's in says so...
     
    FoxHastings, Aug 21, 2018
    #190
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  16. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    And the lack of paid maternity leave would endanger the woman by forcing her into homelessness?
     
    Bowerbird, Aug 22, 2018
    #191
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  17. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    And in the case of gross foetal abnormality?
     
    Bowerbird, Aug 22, 2018
    #192
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  18. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    Then it's not an illegal abortion
     
    Josephwalker, Aug 22, 2018
    #193
  19. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    So you don't mind if a "precious life" is killed if YOU agree it isn't fit to live????
     
    FoxHastings, Aug 22, 2018
    #194
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  20. Bowerbird

    Bowerbird Well-Known Member

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    And THAT aid the main reason for abortion post viability and why there should not be a cut off point. However I do agree that after viability there needs to be more than one medical opinion

    Not to prevent the abortion but to double check on the findings
     
    Bowerbird, Aug 22, 2018
    #195
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  21. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    After a certain point with a healthy baby with a healthy mother it should be murder if she aborts. When that point is is the only subject up for honest debate
     
    Josephwalker, Aug 23, 2018
    #196
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  22. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    It isn't murder unless the fetus has been born....and that's not abortion...
     
    FoxHastings, Aug 23, 2018
    #197
  23. FoxHastings

    FoxHastings Well-Known Member

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    Well, it would be "murder by reason of insanity" so executing her or throwing her in jail for life is off the table...sorry!! :) :).
     
    FoxHastings, Aug 24, 2018
    #198
  24. yguy

    yguy Well-Known Member

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    No it doesn't, because an embryo becomes a fetus at 8 weeks.
     
    yguy, Aug 25, 2018
    #199
  25. Josephwalker

    Josephwalker Banned

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    Three months is plenty of time to decide whether or not to terminate the pregnancy.
     
    Josephwalker, Aug 25, 2018
    #200
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