I don't need religion to be a good person.

Well, I think that I disprove your claim. Unless you are saying that I am a bad and evil person who does bad things in my life or harms anyone in any way.

 

I believe there are exceptions. I am not speaking of any one person but human beings in general. Generally speaking, humans have a dark side.

 

I am as kind and helpful as anyone and more so than some others, and that includes a LOT of people who claim to believe in a god. I and a lot of people I know who do not believe in god are in fact GOOD people.

 

The downfall of human secularism is the belief that human beings are good. History proves different.

There have been horrible atrocities committed by humans who believed they were "good". There have been horrible things done in the name of religion. There have been horrible things done by Godless regimes. What is the common denominator? Answer: Human beings.

To deny humans have a dark side and are capable of horrendous atrocities is pure foolishness.

 

Perhaps some humans are, but not ones who are not mentally disturbed!

 

Not at all, but then again here we go with defining what mentally disturbed is.

 

People without a conscience who will hurt others and not care. Humans have their personality flaws, but most people who aren't in desperate circumstances would not harm others unless they had to. When you hear of a sick or injured person or animal, you want to help, and that includes non religious people.

 

How do you 'know' this? Are you implying there is some kind of absolute morality, embedded in everyone, to tell them this?

BTW, i agree that this is a universal trait of human beings. But i do not see 'morality' as being from a Values Smorgasbord.. where you pick & choose the ones you like. I see it as everyone having the same basic 'sense' of right & wrong, that you seem to see as well.

So the argument you make here is FOR an embedded, universal morality, that could only come from a Supreme Being. How could naturalistic processes account for these things? Theft is a virtue in the natural world. Murder has no consequence. Deception is a plus for survival. Why, in the human experience, are these considered, 'bad', if there is not a universal sense of morality?

 

I think we all realize that when you do something that harms another it is wrong, so in a basic sense, yes, I think there is some kind of morality imbedded in us because that is what allowed us to cooperate with each other and work together.

 

That is purely anectdotal conjecture. The history of human nature proves different. While humans do have a good side, humans also have a dark side. Christianity has dealt with that dark side better than anything in history so far. This would explain why it has been so wildly successful. Meanwhile, atheists have trouble finding any support.

 

You mean like how Hitler worked with the Jews....?

 

One could argue that we don't need religion to be a good person however it is of utmost importance to have a community. The community in which one is raised will help to form a person's morality - the set of rules that they use when interacting with the world.

At one time religion and community were inseparable but as time wears on religion is becoming more and more obsolete because it's world view is so irrelevant to daily life.

Either way this idea that one is ok strictly on their own is vanity. Our morality comes first from our parents and then from our community.

Only the fictional Tarzan could claim to have his own morality and even he had memories of his parents that shaped his decisions.

 

Whereas you may doubt the very existence of God, you seem to be implying that if the Christian God were to exist, then He would be choosing one football team over another.

I am just wondering where, exactly, you derive this theology from.

 

I wonder the same thing too and it seems vain for a person to pray for one football team to win over another.

On the other hand when a person focuses their will on making something happen, on being the best they can and accomplishing something special there is something there that we all admire.

Think about the movie Rocky. Rocky can be seen praying in the corner while Appolo Creed is grandstanding? Which seems more vain? Before answering, remember how Rocky stops by his Priest's home before the fight and asks him to pray that he won't get beat up too much.

 

How do you think non christians and non believers come up with morality

my grandparents knew dr Einstein very well , he was a secular jew , I have a picture with him an my family when I was 4, i wished i was older then to ask him some questions

 

Easy. It was embedded in them from birth, by a Creator that they don't believe in.

Cool about Einstein. I like him a lot, & quote him often in the forums. He really was a very smart person.

 

What could be the source of this 'embedding'? How could 'natural processes' do this, when no other animal or plant has this sense. Theft is a virtue, among animals. Murder is fine, if you can get away with it. Rape, genocide, and just about any animal trait is most often considered 'bad' by humans, so why do they have this 'embedding', and not the rest of the animal kingdom?

 

You don't worship the abrahamic God?

 

Not interested in your worthless labels.

If you presume to make an assertion about my position, it's on you to understand it; and as someone in a position to know, I can assure you with authority that you don't.

 

It's empathy. The ability to relate and identify with others is ultimately the source of morality. Christ's teachings were often focused on this point. "Do unto others..."


Empathy can be developed and we can also teach people to turn off their empathy by dehumanizing a person or group of people. This is why religion can be a double edged sword. A person can learn to humble themselves and put others ahead of themselves, forgiving others etc or religion can easily be used to generate a sense of superiority. It's the most obvious in children. I can remember watching a Christian child talking to her Christian friend about another girl who was also Christian but from a different denomination. The first two girls were from a denomination that thought of wearing jewelry as being a sin. The third girl was wearing earrings. The first girl asked the second, "why is so and so wearing earrings?" The second girl said "because she doesn't know Jesus." The third girl looked confused. It's this sense of superiority that less mature Christians often express that turns many of us away from religion. Thats not to say there aren't Christians who have developed more who have learned not to judge people on superficial things but instead look for good in people and want to establish relationships but it has a lot to do with maturity and the social group.

It's always the social group that is going to emphasize some things over others. Some religious groups are very focused on rules and others are not. The social group establishes the working moral code that everybody operates by.

 

Because we have more complicated brain processes than other animals.

 

Hitler? Seriously? Good grief and good bye. I'm not going to waste my time with such absurdity.

 

What? I think you've totally missed the point of my post.

 

I think this thread shows why religious people are annoying.

 

Here is the bottom line. I don't feel as if I'm part of any "atheist group" or anything like that. I just have my own individual views about things after thinking long and hard about them and even doing some research. I don't really see what Hitler or anyone else has to do with ME. You have your beliefs. I have my NON beliefs. The stories about God, gods, etc., and the thought that there is some kind of supernatural entity controlling things behind the scenes is just way too ridiculous for me to believe in it. And no, you do not have to have a religion or a belief or worship an entity to be a good person. End thread.