I felt I did communicate my beliefs and opinions fairly well. I didn't communicate my nationality because I don't think it's especially relevant. I think the problem is that you assumed both my nationality and political grouping because you wanted (if only subconsciously) to argue against an existing stereotype rather than an unique individual opinion. No, I agree, but the same kind of opportunities do exist in lots of other countries in addition to the US, so that still doesn't support the idea that the "American Dream" is unique. The key question though is why do those opportunities exist in some countries and not others? What would need to be done in the countries where they don't to make those opportunities available? Does that support the idea that the "American Dream" is something that just happens or is something that needs actions to make it equally available to anyone? I said "types or classes of people" generically. Social class is indeed changeable (though not necessarily easily, and the perception can remain regardless) but there are loads of different characteristics which can impact how an individual is treated and thus their ability to succeed, many of which can't be changed or hidden. Again, just because you were successful doesn't automatically mean literally anyone else could be too. I prefer "realistic". I could ask why you're so positive? If you present the impression that everything is perfect (especially if it is for you), you're not even going to consider the possibility that some people might need more help or support. You'll just dismiss them out of hand as not trying hard enough.
These opportunities exist, mainly, by the type of system we have governing us. Iran's government won't even allow women to walk around alone. Afghanistan's government won't allow women to get educated. Sudan's government is making it hard to even stay alive these days. Uyghurs in China are thrown in concentration camps. So are dissenter in North Korea. Even the UK has done things so distasteful that countries from India to.. yes... America... have fought to separate themselves from it. I don't understand your analysis of social class. My grandparents emigrated here, penniless, from Ireland. Both of my grandfathers pushed carts in New York City selling snacks and sundries. One became the Fire Chief of Newark, New Jersey... the other became one of Tom Edison's laboratory techs. My dad went to Cornell, became an Army Officer and a business executive. My mom, one generation away from the "penniless" immigrant... was a nurse. There is no lasting social stigma concerning my penniless grandparents. Here in Texas I have many Hispanic neighbors whose families came here, penniless, as my own did. There's a college professor, an Officer in the local police, and a pharmacist who are my closest neighbors. As with my own family, there is no lasting "social stigma" concerning their penniless grandparents. No, NOTHING is "perfect". Our lives are only as good (or bad) as we make them. Its all up to us. And I must add, America is a great place to make a great life.
Exactly, and that is my point. This isn't only about individuals putting in the effort (though that is also important), we as a society, generally via government in practice, still need to actively ensure that the opportunities are available to everyone. Now I'd suggest that in the 1930s, when the phrase "American Dream" was coined, that certainly wasn't the case for lots of people in the US (or UK) and even in the 1950s that the phrase might be most associated with it was far from perfect. Things are much improved today but we can't rest on our laurels or assume that it will magically remain the case, we still need to ensure we continue to put in the efforts to ensure the opportunities remain available to all. That's probably a cultural difference. In the UK, class isn't about money as much as background and upbringing. A millionaire commoner will still be seen as common and a poor noble will still be seen as noble. You're still using the argument that because people you know were able to work through such disadvantages means the disadvantage doesn't exist and wouldn't need some kind of action or policy to address. Regardless, I totally agree that (perceived) social class is much less significant, specially in the US and in the modern era. Remember that this only came up because you misunderstood my phrase "types and classes of people". You must accept that there are all sorts of characteristic a person can have (or be thought to have) which are harder or impossible to change and which could impact their ability to succeed, be that due to conscious or subconscious discrimination or direct practical consequences (e.g. race, nationality, religion, sexual orientation, marital status, appearance, disability, health). If it's all up to us as individuals, what would be the point of having America as a great place to live at all? The entire point of having nations (and the natural social communities that led to them) is precisely because personal success isn't entirely down to the individual.
I believe it is totally up to the individual. Our country is made of people who looked around and saw there were disadvantages to where they lived (Pilgrims, Huguenots, etc. wanted the opportunity for religious freedom, endless numbers of people wanted more economic freedom, etc.). Heck, look at the millions coming to America today. Leaving home countries is one of the actions that people can make to improve their lives. Once in the new country...starting a business, getting education, gaining skills, etc. are also on the list people can do to succeed. I don't see how marital status can prevent attainment of that success. Heck, its PART of the success. Same with nationality, if your immigration is LEGAL. Religion? Same thing. Many of our founders came here to seek religious freedom. Its guaranteed in our Constitution. Appearance can be an issue. (Sorry, but I don't want my company being represented to my customers by a gal with jewelry piercings, purple hair and so forth. Its not good for business.) If a disability prevents functioning, I believe society has a responsibility to help. Same with serious health problems that actually rate as a disability. So again, personal success IS all a personal responsibility. And if you find yourself in a place where your opportunities are limited, then its your responsibility to leave that place and get to a better place.
Fine, but you can't call that the "American Dream" since on that basis, it wouldn't matter where the individual is born or living. Of course, you've contradicted yourself because you've also said that there are things about how Americans choose to run your society that are also factors in individuals being successful, distinct from countries like China or Afghanistan, where there are (more obvious) legal and social limitations. You're perfectly entitled to say that individual drive and effort is the major factor (and I'd certainly go as far to say it is very important) but you can't declare it is the sole factor, especially when you literally go on to describe other factors! Well, they wanted freedom for people like themselves. They certainly didn't offer freedom or equality to everyone at the time, any more than the societies they left did. Married women can be discriminated for jobs or promotions due to a fear they could become pregnant and thus take maternity leave and have childcare responsibilities. Unmarried men can face difficulties for certain roles, such as ones involving children, due to an assumption they might gay (which itself is generally illegal to ask) - I've experienced that one first hand. Some religious organisations (formally or informally) might discriminate against divorcees or unmarried/single parents too. The point is that they can obviously be factors in discrimination, and explicitly have been in the not too distant past, which is why now most developed countries have laws against such discrimination. In other words, people doing things to help support the equal opportunities of others to succeed. I was thinking "natural" appearance. Someone who is simply not very attractive could well face a harder time getting jobs than someone who is. There isn't much we can do about that but it's important to be aware of it in this context. Society has a responsibility? But I thought it was totally up to individual responsibility? If they can't be successful, doesn't that mean they're just not trying hard enough?
Dreams are never dead but they are unattained. Dreams are dreams as long as people wish for them to be true or wish for them to become a reality. What's "TRUE"? That people wish and dream? The "American dream" in your OP and by your description has never been "TRUE". But you can still dream. Why not? If you give up dreaming then it's dead but it has no effect on reality. Jews believe a Messiah will come someday and all will be well. They call it a belief I call it a dream. The Jews who gave up are called Christians and they have concocted a different dream. That too is unattained and greatly more unrealistic than the one previous. But they can all dream. Everyone can dream.
Its obviously the sole factor. Deciding to move to the best place for success is an individual decision. America just happens to be the best place to go. 30,000 immigrant wannabees are massing in Mexico to come across as we speak...er... write. No contradiction there at all. None of those employment detriments have anything to do with law or policy. They are part of the human condition. Heck, I may not hire you because I don't like your shoes and you'll never know that was the reason. That sort of thing is unavoidable and just... human. Like the unattractive guy you reference. Suck it up.
OK, but what makes America the best place to go (in your opinion)? Do you think that is just a complete coincidence or do you think that the people who created and built up America took conscious choices to try to make it the case? What do you think makes the "American Dream" a real thing in the first place? The legal, regulatory and social restrictions against them obviously do though. The very fact that discrimination is a natural part of the human condition is exactly why we need to make conscious policy and social choices to counter it and push for comprehensive equality and freedom. As you pointed out yourself, in places that don't have those kind of rules and laws, many people are unable to succeed. So however hard some people work, they might not succeed because of factors beyond their control? Or can anyone succeed if they only work hard enough? You can't have it both ways.
America is great for all of those reasons. So how do you make a policy ensuring that someone like your face or approves of your shoes? You can always find an exception, an aberration, or a "what if" anywhere, anytime, about anything. I prefer to concentrate on the normal events.
Of course it is true. Those who don't believe it wouldn't have become a success in the past either. Success comes from personal commitment, risk and work. It doesn't come from government.
