Military clashes between Pakistan and India!

Discussion in 'Asia' started by Mandelus, Feb 27, 2019.

  1. s002wjh

    s002wjh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    614
    Trophy Points:
    113
    A. make in 2025 is just that get competitive in tech market! is that conquering the world? They basically sickening tired of making cheap low quality product and want move up the chain like japan/Sk did

    B. economic yes, they want what we want American dream, a house, car, good jobs, better live for themselves and families. if every Chinese GDP is $30k, then their economy would be twice of US. you can't blame them for wanting a better live.

    C. as far as islands in ScS, did you really dig into it or just follow whatever media says? though I do agree their expansion in ScS is concerning but its far from world domination. They see ScS as we see Caribbean, meaning they want dominate influence in the region. which is why the conflict of interest between US and China in the region, because US had the dominated influence in the region after WWII. with china insert their influence which erode US influence in the region.
    but lets look at the facts on ScS since you didn't dig deep into this issues.
    1. All the island they build are on reef/shoal, which they occupied in various time periods 60,70,80s, meaning they have control of those reef/shoal for at least 30 years.
    2. They put stuff on those reef/shoal decades ago, like light house, garrison etc etc.
    3. most these man made island are build upon high tide island, basically it get submerge during high tide but exposed in low tide. you can't build island in deep water, that's why they build it on these shallow reef/island.
    4. Vietnam/phillipine/malasia also build man made island in the area WAY before china did, the difference is they don't have the industry might to build/extend all their island like china did.
    5. To this day, china Actual control of various islands/shoal/reef are much less compare to Vietnam/phillippine etc. Vietnam control many more islands(including their own man made one) than china.
    6. If china want world domination, they would already invade all these island occupied by Vietnam.

    D. through out china history, during ming dynasty china had a fleet of over 1000 warships travel as far as Kenya, so yes they have naval power before, but mostly for trade.

    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Zheng-He
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_treasure_ship
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
    Merwen and Aleksander Ulyanov like this.
  2. ronv

    ronv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2018
    Messages:
    20,312
    Likes Received:
    8,774
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    They don't trust us.
    Maybe it's because when the Afghan war started we threatened to bomb them back into the stone age if they didn't let us move military supplies thru their country.
     
    Aleksander Ulyanov likes this.
  3. ronv

    ronv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2018
    Messages:
    20,312
    Likes Received:
    8,774
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm sure the Russians would take it.
     
    Jeannette likes this.
  4. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    34,939
    Likes Received:
    6,315
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    You're right about China wanting economic domination rather than a military one. It's a matter of pride with them - and in a way it should be feared because their political system with its lack of human rights to achieve their objectives leaves a lot to be desired.

    These things though must be looked at in an objective manner and not through prideful and paranoid eyes, and our fears of losing our world hegemony. By doing so, Washington is reacting in a way that threatens the very existence of the Chinese people and nation - and that will bode no good.

    A more rational and less warlike approach would be to eliminate their fears and encourage human rights within their society, rather then trying to impose our own system and dominance on them - as well as the rest of the world since our system has a lot to be desired.

    It can be done while still retaining the competitiveness that's normal between nations - although it might be too late. Then again rationality and logic has never been our forte.
     
    Aleksander Ulyanov likes this.
  5. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2013
    Messages:
    33,380
    Likes Received:
    12,436
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm not sure if they were all that against letting us move supplies in. EVERYBODY was against the Taliban after 9/11 and the Pakis felt as threatened by them as anyone else. Countries have this sovereignty thing though and there is a big street cred thing when any muslim country cooperates with the Great Satan, whatever the reason.

    Pakistanis regard Afghans as their children, it's sort of like we are with Canadians, but REALLY truculent and difficult Canadians (there are some, I hear Metis are not that friendly a group, though OK otherwise).
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
    ronv likes this.
  6. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2013
    Messages:
    33,380
    Likes Received:
    12,436
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    There is also a lot of "Yellow Peril" feeling among conservatives. There is just about NO race Trumpists don't have something against.
     
    ronv likes this.
  7. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2018
    Messages:
    2,148
    Likes Received:
    1,139
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Any evidence to back up this claim? In most countries where China does business they are remarkably adapt at staying out of the business of those countries. Commerce really does seem to be the priority. How are they dominating governments in Africa or central Asia?

    China considers the SCS as it's sphere of influence and trade. The military build up is to counter being surrounded by US bases and threats from US activity in the region.

    And the US does not do this??
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
  8. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2018
    Messages:
    2,148
    Likes Received:
    1,139
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Lol, if Trump stays in power he will bring the US to it's knees while benefiting only late night talk show hosts like Stephen Colbert.

    As I've said many times though, the corporate wing of the Democratic party is just as corrupt and prone military blunders as the Republicans. They just make it sound more reasonable.

    Don't forget that for the most part, Democrats have voted in support of Republican wars and are beating the drums against Iran much as the Reps are.
     
  9. ashdoc

    ashdoc Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    153
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    28
    On defence forum of India the Indian response to Pakistani ingress into our side of the LOC is not being considered satisfactory . While the Pakistanis fired 4 to 5 beyond visual range missiles ( BVRs ) we did not fire them at all . The reason being given is that civilian airliners were flying in our territory and one of the BVRs could have hit a civilian airliner as BVR has long range . BVRs reportedly are allowed to be fired only when civilian air traffic has been shut down . In fact only one short range missile was fired , the one by Wing commander Abhinandan Vardhaman . The whole response from the Indian side is being considered unsatisfactory on defence forum of India .
     
    scarlet witch likes this.
  10. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    86,664
    Likes Received:
    17,631
    Trophy Points:
    113
    You would have to understand something about china to grasp what I’m telling you

    Like the man said, if you gotta ask you aint never gonna know
     
  11. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    86,664
    Likes Received:
    17,631
    Trophy Points:
    113
    We did not make threats like that against pakistan

    The paki’s were in a tough spot as always

    with the modern world led by the US on one side and crazy muslim clerics from the 14th Century pushing them from the other side
     
  12. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    86,664
    Likes Received:
    17,631
    Trophy Points:
    113
    NO self respecting moocher would choose a poverty stricken has-been to feed them instead of the rich Americanos
     
  13. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    86,664
    Likes Received:
    17,631
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I wish I had time to document all the activities of china along the “One belt and One road” scheme they are engaged in

    The gist of it is making loans to african and some asian countries that cannot be paid back

    So china takes over ports or mineral resources instead
     
  14. ashdoc

    ashdoc Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    153
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Most of the American BVRs the Pakistani pilots fired failed to reach their targets except the one that shot wing commander Abhinandan Vardhaman . So every cloud has a silver lining .

    The Sukhois were able to successfully jam all the American BVRs and made them ineffective . But Wing commander Abhinandan Vardhaman went across the LOC in his bid to get the Pakistani plane and beyond the range of the sukhoi's jamming range . Hence he got hit by BVR .
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2019
    scarlet witch likes this.
  15. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2015
    Messages:
    12,210
    Likes Received:
    2,618
    Trophy Points:
    113
    With reunification At the end of the Cold War, Germany has regained its full sovereignty. Before that, Germany did not have it and that meant in the end that we had to submit to the will of you in various matters ... no matter how much it was against our interests or even harmed us.
    This is finally over ... and unfortunately many Americans, but also others have a problem if we simply say "No" to something and stick to it or even create own demands towards others, because THAT is our interest, as for example at North Stream. We want it that way, it's our decision and our interest and then it's like this and everyone else has to live with it, no matter their liking - Basta!
    And then again and again this idiotic hint comes to the Nazi time, which annoys us and why we also laugh about such things!

    The first real scratches were the relationship between us and the US in 2003 but with the US criminal, lying based attack on Iraq and the atrocities of the US following ... which in turn were judged by you to be legitimate, like for example Gunantanamo and torture!
    Right downhill then went the relationship with you as this impudent idiot of your current president came and verbally attacked us and threatened and did unauthorized measures against us issued and still threatens to this day. Do you really think we like it and love the US unchanged further with such a behavior of you?

    Mac ... we also read and watch the media and see what Trump & Co is saying. For example, if Trump once said that he wants to see a lot lesser and at best no Mercedes and BMW on 5th Avenue in New York because bad foreign cars who kill US jobs and then he makes corresponding threats of punitive tariffs ... we certainly do not love Trump and all the Americans , who think that's great and right ... especially since here, as in all other things, he tells only total BS of half truths to his people and not the whole truth, or did Trump ever told that these German automotive give 150,000 US peopel a well paid job and that BMW alone is the biggest US car exporter of cars build in the US and shipped to the rest of the world?

    And about climate change, sorry ...
    In the meantime we can only laugh about these desperate American attempts to deny climate change itself or at least that man caused it.
    The reason is also completely clear to us, because accepting this truth and then taking the necessary measures hurts and restricts the familiar and beloved way of life. Therefore, we only laugh when once again 1 or 2 scientists support your denial and you celebrate the Messiah of truth, but you ignore the 1,000 other scientists who say otherwise.

    And about NK ... only short in the end: What success was earned by Trump with hios 2 meetings which are so heavy cheered by his fans please? Tell me one aside fact that it was the first time that such a meeting happened! But even in advance of the whole we could only shake our heads over you. Yes, "mad midget" is a bloody dictator, but which international law prohibits him from building his own rockets ... and which international provision forbids him from building his own nuclear weapons, which were not just ignored by Israel, Pakistan and India and where no one is with you over it upset?
    And then who struck the war drum with stupid sayings like "my red button is bigger"? And who enforced Trump's unwanted sanctions and made them hurt Kim? China ... not the USA, but you celebrate Trump then! Really great ... and that's why we shall love you?
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2019
  16. ashdoc

    ashdoc Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2013
    Messages:
    153
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    28
    From DFI---
    The Sukhois did not fire BVR missiles because while jamming the Pak missiles they were also maneuvering to not get hit by Pak missiles . So it was difficult to launch missiles while maneuvering . When the Pak planes turned away it was decided not to attack them as they were 24 against only 8 of our jets . So the odds were 3 to 1 in their favour by numbers . So the mystery as to why our BVR missiles were not launched is solved .
     
    scarlet witch likes this.
  17. Tim15856

    Tim15856 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2016
    Messages:
    7,792
    Likes Received:
    4,228
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You just make crap up as you go along. You just don't think we notice your obvious psychological projection. Lack of self awareness will do that to a person.
     
  18. ronv

    ronv Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2018
    Messages:
    20,312
    Likes Received:
    8,774
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    You try and pick on @s002wjh yet you are the one uninformed.

    The Bush administration threatened to bomb Pakistan "back to the stone age" after the September 11 attacks if the country did not cooperate with America's war on Afghanistan, it emerged yesterday.

    In an interview to be aired on CBS television this weekend Pakistan's president, General Pervez Musharraf, said the threat was delivered by the assistant secretary of state, Richard Armitage, in conversations with Pakistan's intelligence director.

    "The intelligence director told me that (Mr Armitage) said, 'Be prepared to be bombed. Be prepared to go back to the stone age'," Gen Musharraf was quoted as saying. The revelation that the US used extreme pressure to secure Pakistan's cooperation in the war on terror arrived at a time of renewed unease in the US about its frontline ally.

    Gen Musharraf told CBS he was stunned at the bluntness of the US approach in the aftermath of the attacks. "I think it was a very rude remark," he said. But he yielded to the request.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/sep/22/pakistan.usa
     
  19. Aleksander Ulyanov

    Aleksander Ulyanov Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2013
    Messages:
    33,380
    Likes Received:
    12,436
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    [
    And meanwhile in the topic the thread is actually ON . I am EXCUSING the United States

    I think I'm beginning to see the problem, it's the John Bircher super patriots, the old "my country right or wrong" crowd who won't tolerate any criticism of America, even though that's how America works
     
  20. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2018
    Messages:
    2,148
    Likes Received:
    1,139
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Some truth to this though I don't know of any example of China taking over ports or mineral resources through outstanding debt. Can you document this?

    Ironically, this is exactly what the Trioka (IMP, World Bank, EU)is doing in places like Greece, Italy and Spain in order to force privatization of ports and infrastructure. And they are forcing pensioners and students to pay for it rather than Greece's banking elites who took out the loans in the first place.

    Actually, China owns a lot of debt worldwide including about 20% of African debt and huge amounts or US debt. But their loan terms are far less egregious than those of say the IMF

    Compared to institutions such as the IMF, World Bank and Paris Club (a group of 22 creditor nations not including China), loans from China are seen by some as much quicker, cheaper, and come with fewer strings attached.
     
    ronv likes this.
  21. Jeannette

    Jeannette Well-Known Member Past Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    34,939
    Likes Received:
    6,315
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Female
    If I recall there were mass riots in Germany with Reagan and his aggressive stance towards the Soviet Union. Seems like they'd rather be red than dead.

    Why, Iran is not an aggressive nation? As for us you mean Israel? We're not one and the same you know? Anyway Iran should learn to shut up, because right now they're dealing with Netanyahu and he's mad in more ways than one.

    Far from reality. Projecting perhaps?

    The destabilizing comes from the one that shouldn't be there. Yesterday our plane flew into the Chinese territorial waters. Can you imagine if their planes flew into our own waters?


    I not going to speak about the Chinese since they have caused the plastic islands in the Pacific, but the Russian Federation is not the Soviet Union. Anyway I was told that Canada is losing its forest because of us. We use too much paper - yet the corporations are not making napkins and towels smaller, only raising prices.

    Oh well, if worse get to worse we can go to war with Russia. Lot's of forest there. :roll:
     
  22. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    86,664
    Likes Received:
    17,631
    Trophy Points:
    113
    https://www.ft.com/content/e150ef0c-de37-11e7-a8a4-0a1e63a52f9c

    This is typical of how the chinese dictatorship operates
     
  23. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    86,664
    Likes Received:
    17,631
    Trophy Points:
    113

    You are mistaken as usual

    Trump supporters are not cheering his meeting with kim because there is nothing to cheer about

    But we do continue to support trump in spite of the scurrilous attacks of trump haters in America and around the world

    And contrary to your adoration of China, the dictatorship on the mainland is doing nothing to assist the US, south korea, and Japan in their effort to end the nuclear threat from north korea
     
  24. Mandelus

    Mandelus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2015
    Messages:
    12,210
    Likes Received:
    2,618
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Sorry, but after meeting #01 it sounded total otrherwise ... what only was missing was the proposal to give Trump nobel price for it!

    [QUOITE]But we do continue to support trump in spite of the scurrilous attacks of trump haters in America and around the world[/QUOTE]

    Then please give me an example of an action or a statement / announcement by Trump, for which he received unfounded criticism and attacks!

    Where do you want to get that from?
    And generally noted:
    The US has its puppets on the planet, for example, the nuclear power Pakistan, where it currently bangs with India and where they do not really affect public ...
    China has its puppet, for example the nuclear power North Korea, where you accuse her of doing nothing.
     
  25. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2011
    Messages:
    86,664
    Likes Received:
    17,631
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Pakistan has s not a US puppet

    It plays a wierd 3-way game with the US, china and muslim fanatics

    Which is quite a balancing act
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2019

Share This Page