Patient removed from heart transplant list for refusing Covid-19 vaccine

When we have limited medical resources, sometimes we have to choose who we give the medicine to. Sometimes we have to give the medicine to the person who is more likely to live longer. It's a cruel world.

 

vegan eh? Say hello to B12 deficiency
https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2013/199/4/vitamin-b12-and-vegetarian-diets

well, bully for you

Now what about this claim that republicans are healthier than democrats

BTW here is Australia’s ethical guides for transplant

https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/sites/defa...NHMRC-ethical-guidelines-organ-transplant.pdf

 

You don't know that.

 

...hurricanes can be nuked, wind energy kills bird, shower pressure is not adequate "from the standpoint of water" and the country only belongs to them.

Everyone should get the hell out so they can sprawl on their stolen land, built by slave labor, harvested by illegal immigrants, technologically connected by East Indians and big box stocked from China.

 

So you're saying that people that have gotten the vaccine can't get sick? So you're saying that the vaccine doesn't cause you to get sick in the following 24 hours after you get it?

Actually, you aren't saying much. Just making silly comments.

 

I think that he would have the same chance of survival either way. If he gets the vaccine now which would make him sick (like it does for nearly everyone), then he would probably die since he has a bad heart.
If he gets the vaccine later, at least he would have a healthy heart.
Or, he could just continue to be extremely cautious and not get covid and recover the same as anyone else.

 

In normal times, we treat anyone who is sick or injured.

But when supplies are limited, sometimes you have to choose between those who are more likely to survive.

 

A shot in the arm would be much quicker than a lawsuit.

 

Nice logic. Explain the logic of denying monoclonal antibodies to all white people under the age of 65. They are FAR FAR more likely to survive than those over the age of 65. I have no idea how you guys survive with this much cognitive dissonance. You hold so many diametrically opposed positions that it is impossible for me to accept that you actually believe them.

In summary, you support triage on race and age in favor of those less likely to survive and support triage for heart surgeries in favor of those more likely to survive. These are the mental gymnastics one has to engage in order to support fascists who assert absurdities. History will not be kind to the Democrats of 2020 (assuming there is a history when they are done).

 

And less likely to need them

Who is at most risk of dying from Covid? Well, isn’t it darker skinned people over 65?

BTW some proof this is actually happening and not some Tucker Carlson conspiracy theory based on the fact that we are no longer using some of the monoclonal antibodies as they are ineffective against The omicron variant

 

and if they can't follow medical orders pre-surgery, they can't after

like an alcoholic that wants a new liver, but refuses to quit drinking pre-surgery, but says will after

 

Vaccines are routinely required for transplants

 

Yep! A whole slew of them

 

What don't I know? That he will die without a transplant? According to his family, "he needs a transplant to live", "he's gone to the edge of death," is "in severe end-stage heart failure," is "running out of time," , that it's "extremely time sensitive" etc. etc.

 

No. Here is what I responded to...

You don't know if those kids' father are better off with him alive unless you know these people personally. Do you know this guy and his family?

 

All things being equal better to give the heart to a vaccinated person, than unvaccinated.

 

No, I don't know them personally. As such, I can only apply the norm (in the hope that it does indeed apply), whereby children are typically devastated at the loss of a parent. I'm obviously well aware that there are cases in which quite the reverse is true, but don't feel the need to add the caveat "may not apply in all cases" to every post, or elaborate on possible exceptions when to do so would be stating the obvious. For example, I'm quite sure almost everyone here knows full well that it's not always the case that a parent would be missed. If someone was posting about parenting, or the "joys of childhood," or the need for social services, there would probably be many posts in which it was necessary to point out that many children have parents who harm them, one way or another, because the person I was responding to had rose-tinted glasses.

 

I understand your position but I mentioned, not for you to add a disclaimer to all your posts, but because you are making a declarative statement based on that assumption.

Yes, you can make whatever you want for your body if you were faced with this situation. You have that right.

But, so does he.

Hence, my argument that nobody should have the right to tell someone else what they should do with their own body, not even doctors. Doctors can recommend specific medications, procedures, treatment plans, but they CAN'T **tell** a patient to do anything. They have the license to practice medicine how they see fit but they aren't gods and nobody else lives with the choices they want to make for others.

You are appealing to emotion by mentioning his kids and pregnant spouse. They aren't relevant to this question. The **only** question on the table is:

Did the doctor or his team relay to the patient that having a COVID vaccine or vaccines and boosters is a REQUIREMENT to move forward in the transplant waiting process?

If yes, and he chooses not to, he has forfeited his position on that list or in that program.

If no, he needs to be informed of that requirement.


We know the answers to both those questions. His pregnant wife, two boys, hair color, favorite foods, neighbor's name, job title, etc.. NONE of it's relevant.



Further, I didn't think it was necessary to add that he most likely discussed this issue with his wife. I doubt any sane man would try to go rogue on this. So, it's probably safe to assume that she's fine with it unless there is subsequent information about this case that shows otherwise.

And, that's her right too.



Before you ask, yes, I am pro-choice and I disagree with suicide being illegal for the exact same reasons.

 

I ask, what about his two boys and unborn child - followed by a question mark. The question mark is by way of asking IF and to what extent they have factored into his decision making. Though inspired by "norms" as regards the impact on his children, it is a question - not declarative. The subsequent sentence relates to what I would do.

As regards emotion, you may see it as irrelevant and you may think that the "only question" is whether or not he was advised that he was required to take the vaccine, but that's you.

In my posts, I do me.

According to his wife he went through all the tests and screening etc. required to be approved for transplant patients but was told he could not be put on the active list because of his vaccination status.

 

There was no need for that as I never said that you should do anybody else but you.

However, a huge divide in communication on all sides is why nothing ever gets solved. Everybody running around clutching their pearls and being offended doesn't help anybody.

Maybe if people stopped projecting their "King of World Gold Standard Rules" about how everyone else should live, we might be able to tone down some of the negativity.

 

I can assure you I'm not a pearl-clutcher. And I'm certainly not firing on all cylinders in terms of conflict and negativity. I've read many of your posts and completely share your disgust with the faux outrage and never-ending determination to make something out of nothing in order to have something to hate. So, I'll say it like it is, trusting that you'll bear this in mind. My response was actually toned down, because frankly, the tone of your post struck me as officious and hectoring. I say this not to offend but in order to explain and deescalate as it were, so that we can move on without hostility. I understand that this happens inadvertently and no doubt my tone has been unintentionally off at times too. No doubt we'll have differing viewpoints in future, but at least remain within the bounds of civility!

 

I absolutely concur. And, I offer sincere apologies for the things that felt harsh toward you. Upsetting others is NEVER my intent, but, alas, I'm human and I slip up.

No harm, no foul.

 

Indeed

 

Thank you kind sir.

I will share with you a contributor to my reaction to this situation. Many decades ago, one of my aunts (maternal) went to the HVAC business she co-owned with her husband. They were both in their late 20s I believe. As per routine, he went to open the business as she got their four kids dressed fed and off to school and daycare. All of them were under five years old. She went to the business and found her husband dead in his office. My parents allowed her to move in with us to help her get back on her feet.

At some point, she and my cousins moved into a house and she raised them alone until she remarried and had a baby with her second husband. I don't know many details because we were just young kids as well.

In high school, her youngest son moved in with us because it was a closer walk to his high school from our house. We were very close. He was a really nice guy. We lost touch when I graduated and got married but I saw him from time to time at funerals and weddings, things like that. To be frank, I felt a bit uncomfortable with getting "too close" with him because he mother hated me just as my mother hates me and I don't try to push against that. I never get into arguments with most people because that's a lot of energy and there was nothing that I could say or do to make either of our mothers stop hating me so I didn't try. The primary reason is that I'm not prejudiced and my cousin is gay. I knew he was gay before he knew he was gay and I didn't care. His sex life is none of my business so that news was like telling me he got a haircut. LOL Our family is 5 generations Catholic and I was the only one that didn't look down on him.

By the time we both decided that we were adults and could choose to stay in touch we did. At that point in time, my aunt had buried two of her daughters, a cousin my age died at 29 and her sister died at 34. I sent my aunt condolence cards but I didn't want to make her more upset by attending their services. My cousin and I got to talking about that and he told me that he had reached a place of peace about all the stuff that went on back then and his father's death was a blessing to him. I didn't quite understand because both my parents were alive and still married and all the cousins (I think there were 32 of us first cousins - grandma had 11 kids, all married but only one never had children) were jealous of us because my parents were well off and they assumed we lived a charmed life.

He went on to explain it for me and said that he didn't remember his father because he was only two years old when he passed. And, his oldest brother got out as soon as he could and joined the military and distanced himself from the family so he didn't really have anyone, other than his mother to fill in the gaps. He said that his father's life insurance policy allowed his mom to buy them another house closer to us and provide for them. For years, she and her 2nd husband continued to build the HVAC business and she drove two hours in the winter to her job as an accountant at Motorola. She didn't know how I felt about her (I don't hate people solely because they hate me) but I always admired her strength and determination. I think of her when I'm ready to run away and join the circus. LOL

Conversely, I grew up with both of my biological family but I was never "part" of the family, so to speak. My father was a bit nicer to me than my mother but Satan probably could have achieved that. She is one of the most hateful and manipulative people I have ever met. And, to someone looking in from the outside, it seemed like we had a sweet deal. We never lived in somebody else's property, didn't have food (in fact, except for Sunday dinners in which we were required to sit in the formal dining room and have dinner together, our father NEVER ate until he knew we had been fed. He grew up very poor with a single mother (and she was not the nicest to him. I only know that because I saw him come out the shower without a shirt on (he had on his police trousers) and I can't describe what I saw on his back. I was a believer at the time and prayed every day for my father to make it home alive. We had seen so many of his academy buddies and partners laid to rest well before their time. He did make it home every day until he retired. He passed last Summer and he still couldn't find it within himself to care about me but I still loved him (and my mother).

I think about this contrast when I hear or read someone being dismissive of other people's struggles. Nobody has a perfect life and just because someone doesn't share that part of themselves, it doesn't mean they aren't hurting. I was bullied in school and I was afraid to tell my parents because they were also abusive toward me. I did my best to not get them worked up about anything. The 3-4 times I did ask for help, I was cursed out and hung up on so I didn't bother with it. I didn't even know that they helped my ex kidnap our children. Outsiders see that as proof that I must have been at fault but that's not the case. They have *always* sided with anybody who is against me. It doesn't even matter if the other person is lying.

Sadly, my cousin pass last January (2021) and his mom passed two weeks later. Both died of COVID. One of my neighbors told me that she was shocked to hear that I almost died last Summer. Outside my doctors and my closest friends, nobody knows that I have health problems. The reason is when I live home, I am always smiling. It doesn't matter how I feel.

I completely understand your position on this man's choices and I also understand his position on making the decisions he deems most appropriate for his life (and we just never know what someone is carrying because most of us don't share that).

And, when I think of all this together, it helps to remind me that everybody deserves to at least be heard. Everybody can use some kindness. Well, no, erase that. I don't give a damn what happens to murderers, rapists and pedophiles. <---Everybody other than those monsters deserves a little more understanding, a little more compassion and little more joy. I purpose to do that every day of my life. '

 

Thanks for sharing all that, It's very thought-provoking so please don't confuse the brevity of words with any disinterest. Far from it. As I say, thought-provoking, and perhaps much more so than you would imagine, so I will think rather than write. I will quickly say however that there's a lot to admire in the way that you think and feel, that sets you apart. I do my very best to be a worthwhile human being but seems you're streets ahead of me, in certain respects, especially your generosity.