Pope Francis Says Weapons Manufacturers Shouldn’t Call Themselves Christians

Again that is your interpretation. I do not have to write the Pope to obtain his interpretation of this. I am not making any assumption on their existence or the Popes position on their existence and use of weaponry. You are. You can make the claim and repeat as much as you want but it is still assuming facts not in evidence. It is your interpretation. I am not equivocating on anything you are making assumptions on non-existent facts.

 

It is not me that is being absurd and equivocating. I am assuming nothing and going of the evidence at hand. That is the only way to honestly debate. To use interpretation, assumptions, generalizations and hypotheticals is intellectually dishonest.

Again with the Marxism....You apparently have no idea what Marxism really means.

Let me ask you a few off-topic questions to once and for all deal with this whole Marxism canard.

1. Do you believe the Pope and/or liberals in general are moral relativists?
2. Do you believe in objective truth?
3. Do you believe in objective value of objects?
4. Do you believe the Pope and/or liberals are idealists?

 

There was an assassination attempt in 1981. I don't think it was at the Vatican, probably because the assassin was detered by the Swiss Guard.

 

Pope Francis was not Pope in 1981.

 

Are the makers of weapons only unchristian if the weapons they make are used, since they like you, can not assume how their weapons are likely to be used?

Are the member of the Swiss guard unchristian since they are trained as soldiers, carry weapons, and take a salary (proft) from their training as soldiers?

 

But the Swiss Guard has been guarding the Vatican since tthe 1500s, and they guard him and they're armed with .....shhhh.....guns, and he's the beneficiary of that armed protection. Which makes him a hypocrite.

 

what if they are selling "Jesus Rifles" to kill people with?

 

You are getting off topic again. You chastised others in this room when you said you only wanted to discuss the single point of the Pope saying that weapons manufactures can not profit from making their weapons and still be Christians. You then went on to add your own 2 cents by saying the the gun company owners should give away all their profits.

Time to face the music. Do you still demand that all gun and weapons company owners must not be paid even a single nickel for the weapons they produce IF they want to be "real Christians" as the Pope insists?

If you want to go back on your statements to save face, then how much profit should a gun company owner be limited to each year for running an operation with hundreds of employees, working on designs, advertising and so on? Even a wicked slavemaster would allow a little food for his slaves. Would you not even allow that?

The only definitions of what a Marxist or a Christian is that you will accept are what they are in your own head.

But to humor you I'll answer:

1) The Pope and other liberals like you base your morals on mostly worldly ideas, not Biblical laws. Which ever direction the winds blows at a given time is the relative direction of your morals.

2) Objective truth can be found the moral laws in the Bible. Read Matt 5:17. Subjective truth is whatever debased leaders like Francis, Obama or the editors of USA Today say it is.

3) Of course.

4) The current Pope and liberals have many ideas that are morally debased. In my opinion, any Christian that voted for Obama twice has no business being a Christian, and may as well paint a pentagram on their living room floors.

 

First, I am not the one that is perpetually getting off topic. On occasion I entertain off-topic posts if they peak my interest but I always qualify it first by the full disclosure that it is indeed off-topic.

Second, as far as facing the music I never stated that people who manufacture or invest in weapons companies shouldn't make money. What I did say is that the Pope calls people who do profit from the manufacture, sale and investment in weapons are duplicitous if they call themselves and are engaging in unchristian actions. That duplicitousness then corresponds to an erosion of any morality Christian preach because it is hypocritical.

As to what I accept as a definition of Christian is someone who follows the teachings of Christ nothing more nothing less.

As to what I accept as the definition of a Marxist is what is and has been the accepted definition of Marxism.

1. Again you are making assumptions on me and the Pope. You make assumptions on how a derive my moral code. You make the assumption that I am a moral relativist. I am not. More importantly is the fact that there is no moral absolute in Biblical Law. Biblical Law is fraught with moral relativism. If you believe in Biblical Law then you are a moral relativist. Lets just take the 10 Commandments. You shall not have any Graven Images - yet even the jews of the Bible carved the arc of the covenant and bowed and prayed to it. I guess it was no graven images except... You shall not murder - yet Moses murdered almost every Midianites. David murdered Uriah. Elijah murdered up to 1000 plus people depending on what version of the Bible you use. David also murdered 200 Philistines for their foreskins. Saul murdering every Amalekites including personally murdering Agage because God commanded it...I guess it should be you shall not murder except for... I could go on and on but what is the point. The idea the Bible contains some sort of objective morality is a myth. That is not to say I am a moral relativist as I expect the Pope is not either but I will not presume to speak for the Pope. I myself base my morality on, in the best of the American tradition, taking the what I perceive to be the best of differing philosophies. I am part stoic, naturalist, theist, Christian, empirical and utilitarian. I do believe in objective morality I just don't believe it can be found in one idea or notion.

2. The notion that Objective Truth exists in the Bible has been thoroughly debunked. There are even few if any theologist would contend that what is in the Bible is an objective truth. For instance you cannot hold the "Biblical Truth" that the earth is 6000 years old and the scientific evidence that it is billions of years old. The Bible requires that you accept things on faith and not on their inherent truth. That being said you really did not answer the question. The question is do you believe that truth exists outside of those that perceive it?

3. If you believe in objective worth of material objects then you are on your way to becoming a Marxist. The first and most important criteria that Marxism has is that material objects contain some inherent value outside the perception of humanity.

4. You did not answer the question. Is the Pope and idealist?

 

Because the Roman Catholic Church remains a top down hierarchical system.

No I didn't see that response which I suspect was at best half baked in any case. And again Why didn't Christ or Peter the RC Church's supposed founder tell those Roman Centrurion's to throw their swords away before they'd help them?

Because Roman Catholic theology is self serving poppycock and I've seen little if anything this pope has done to correct it's rather glaring deficiences once you get by the obvious.

 

Poppycock...really and you claim my responses which you haven't even read are half-baked. Coming from you I'll take that as a compliment.

 

Wtf? Pope Francis tells the truth... it is just that truth hurts. Weapon manufacturers will go as far as to trigger wars and corrupt politicians in order to sell their products... if there's someone who should burn in hell, it is them.

 

You are backflipping. You praised the Pope's hypocritical comments on Gun Control only because they help further your anti-gun agenda.

Your whole thread was bout your praise for the Pope's demand that no Christian can "profit" from the manufacture of guns or weapons.

prof·it
/ˈpräfət/
noun
noun: profit; plural noun: profits
1.a financial gain, especially the difference between the amount earned and the amount spent in buying, operating, or producing something.

"pretax profits"
synonyms:

(financial) gain, return(s), yield, proceeds, earnings, winnings, surplus, excess; More
informalpay dirt, bottom line
synonyms:

advantage, benefit, value, use, good, avail;


"we could gain no profit by continuing"


2. obtain a financial advantage or benefit, especially from an investment.



Then you say that gun makers can make a profit and still be Christians.

If you think the Pope was wrong in calling Christian gunmakers Christian hypocrites, then you must agree that the Pope is hypocrite by profiting from the use of the very same guns they make.

The MORAL laws of the Bible that do not deal with strictly cultural or ceremonial laws should be viewed as "absoulte truth" by any real Christian and are still valid today. Faith in Bible history stories from the OT won't save anyone.

The Pope is an "idealist" in terms of liberalism and Marxism As a supposed Christian, he is more of a comsumer Christian. Like someone shopping in a store, most Christians will take a little of this and a little of that, and not touch what they find distasteful. I would call him more accurately a false teacher.

 

Simply put, Pope Francis is wrong just like all the other gun-grabbing liberals! He should respect our support of our Constitution.

 

I am not backflipping at all. The Pope has called those that profit from the sale and manufacture of weapons as guilty of an Unchristian act. That Unchristian act together with their preaching of Christian morals is hypocritical and duplicitous. This hypocrisy and duplicitousness then damages the faith in general as people become jaded to claims of faith.

I do not think the Pope is wrong in calling Christian gunmakers hypocrites. I also do not think the Pope is a hypocrite for employing people that have weapons for reasons stated before.

Most of the Moral laws put forth in the Bible come from the Old Testament. You yourself quoted that in the New Testament Jesus confirms that he is not here to change the laws but fulfill them. Therefore you must as a matter a faith take both Old Testament and New Testament with equal authority. Which leads to the many of the moral equivocations I have mentioned before. The bottom line is that the Bible is no more a absolute truth than any other religious or philosophical discipline.

If the Pope is an idealist he cannot possibly be a Marxist. That is what I am trying to get at. Many conservatives claim, like you, that liberals are both idealists and Marxist. A Marxist by definition cannot be an idealist. The two positions are irreconcilable.

 

You and Pope base your ideas on your own definitions of things. Plain and simple.

You and the current Pope also don't give a flip about the laws and teachings of the Bible.

Please show me where exactly in the Bible does it say that:

One sins when he uses a weapon to defend himself or as part of a nation's army

One sins when he makes a weapon

One sins when he makes a profit from making or investing in the making of a weapon.

Marxists will lie and use whatever propaganda they can imagine to bring about their ends.

How pathetic that a Godless pagan such as yourself attempts to use scripture they have no use for.

 

Matthew 26:52-54
Matthew 5:38-39
Isaiah 2:4
Isaiah 31:1
Isaiah 54:17
Ephesians 6:12
Romans 12:19
Second Corinthians 10:4
Psalms 20:7-8

amongst others

 

Of course I am throwing pearls before swine:

Of David. Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle;
Psalm 144:1

He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.
Luke 22:36

And he said to them, “When I sent you out with no moneybag or knapsack or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “Nothing.” He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about me has its fulfillment.” And they said, “Look, Lord, here are two swords.” And he said to them, “It is enough.”
Luke 22:35

For he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.
Romans 13:4

And David said to his men, “Every man strap on his sword!” And every man of them strapped on his sword. David also strapped on his sword. And about four hundred men went up after David, while two hundred remained with the baggage.
1st Samuel 25:13

So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute the Lord's vengeance on Midian.
Numbers 31:3

etc..

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Of course a person ignorant of Christianity will go to a atheisit website and print off just what pleases them---like you.

In Matthew 26 Christ told Peter to put away his sword after cutting off an ear of the people trying to take him. Swords are used figuratively as well as physically in the Bible. "Those who live by the sword die by the sword" is a figurative way to say those who live by violence as their way of life die by it.

Even a dullard might realize that if Jesus was against swords and weapons, he wouldn't have allowed his disciples to carry them in the first place as proven by Luke 22 and Matt 26. Both Jesus and the Popes walked around with armed people---as did almost every ruler and leader of the Hebrews.

Of course you didn't provide a single passage saying that weapons makers are sinning. The people who made all the weapon to arm Moses, David, and Jesus are just as safe from damnation as the current gunmakers who arm the Pope and his Swiss Guard.

 

But wouldn't you say he poses a good question is a drug dealer guilty of harm when he sells drugs that are then used by someone else? Or when someone provides a location to sell slaves are they just as wrong as the slavers? Maybe a better example is the man that creates a suicide vest for a suicide bomber is he as culpable as the bomber?

Are our actions that contribute or promote a sin just as bad as the sin or is it just commerce?

 

Again, the canard about Jesus allowing the disciples to carry swords is not a valid point. Almost unanimously theologians agree that this was done with sole intent of fulfilling prophecy.

http://dhspriory.org/thomas/CALuke.htm#22

I did not go any web site to rattle off quotes.

Again by then quoting other quotes that support weapons and warfare go back to my point before that universal truth does not exist in the Bible so to use it in such a way is impossible.

 

But then you'd have to condemn the makers of knives, baseball bats, cars, ropes and any and all item thats could be used as a deadly weapons. Guns are sold to hunt with and protection from wild animals. If someone uses one to commit murder, the burden of guilt is on the gun maker?? The vast majority of gun owners hope they never have to use them. The gun maker is not responsible when someone uses his product to commit murder.

 

So the creator of a suicide vest or bomb is not responsible for those that use them to do harm?

 

Dude I'm not going back through 15 pages of posts to find your genius, which may or may not exist wholly in your own mind.

 

Ok then I guess you really do not want to participate in this thread in any meaningful way.

 

I made no mention of suicide vests, which have only one purpose. I don't think theres a factory line making them, hey're pretty much improvised one at a time, and given, not sold, to the one committing suicide.