Question For John Atheist: Don't You Want To Remember Your Good Deeds Forever?

Amen.

I view that as healthy and realistic.

 

Incorrect -- not healthy and not realistic.
Both you and RoccoR ignored all the points I made in my post
where I responded to your incorrect observations.
Here:
http://www.politicalforum.com/index...-deeds-forever.576683/page-13#post-1072079865

_____________

Any views that eliminate the God that created us and His
Son the Lord Jesus are not healthy views and are very
unrealistic.

You have no idea of just WHO the Lord Jesus is -- He is
King Of Kings And Lord Of Lords {Revelation 19:16}

And we ALL will bow the knee to Him at some future
point in human history. Some say they will never bow
their proud knee to the God of the Bible and His Son
the Lord Jesus. They are WRONG --- at The Judgment
they will be completely and totally over-whelmed at His
Glory and Splendor and they WILL bow their knee. All of
us can know the Lord Jesus as our Savior if we will make
a decision to repent and believe the gospel --- but here is
the truth -- all of us will either know Him as our , , ,
{1} Savior
or
{2} Judge

{1} is the wise healthy and realistic choice.

Start quote.
" Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be used to his own
advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus
Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father"
Philippians 2:5-11

JAG

``

 

RE: Question For John Atheist: Don't You Want To Remember Your Good Deeds Forever?
⁜→ et al,

BLUF: At the outset, I Apologize in Advance (AIA) if I offend anyone in my responses. I have no intention to be disrespectful.

STATEMENTS

S1: The Afterlife Of Heaven Is For Those (followed by some religious quote), , , (JAG)

◈. The belief in an “Afterlife” is, alone, --- it is a belief in the same mystical powers by a Supreme Being as the famous the hit Drama • Mystery • Fantasy • TV Program the “Ghost Whisperer” (Jennifer Love Hewitt). It portrays a human with the mystical power to talk with the spirits of the dead. The “Ghost Whisperer” helps these spirits of the dead “to pass on to the other side” (ie. Heaven).

Stories written about Vampires and Zombies are stories about the dead rising. The trilogy “Resident Evil” (Milla Jovovich) the dead cannibal-like characteristics. And my personal favorite “Stan Against Evil” (John McGinley | Janet Varney) is the classic Good vs Evil type story wherein the dead rise, witches have indecent powers of that granted by the Supreme Being, demons from Hell). Even, the TV Program Second Chance (Robert Kazinsky, Dilshad Vadsaria) centers on the resurrection to help the living.

The story of Lazarus rising from the dead is no different. What distinguishes Lazarus from any other story?

S2: The compound statements: (JAG)

Interrogatives:

✦. Heaven is real.
✦. Sin is real.
✦. Unbelief is real.
✦. Sin & Unbelief will destroy the soul.
✦. The Lord Jesus died on the Cross to pay for our sins.​

Responses:

✧ Heaven is a mystical place.
✧ Sin is an invention of man and society.
✧ Unbelief is always with us. Belief means nothing without disbelief.
✧ The “soul” is a “spirit” just like the Ghost Whisperer deals with.

✧ The belief in the story of “Jesus” is a belief in magic. It is no different from the movie “The Craft” (Robin Tunney) wherein four teenagers call and receive powers from the Guardians (N,E,S,W).

✧ The set of your Compound Statements is only slightly different from practice witchcraft, conjuring various spells and curses for both good and evil. ​

(COMMENT)

IF the commentary was intended to support the existence of a Supreme Being which is based on the Abrahamic Religions, THEN you cannot use scripture, cannons, letters, and scrolls to support those beliefs. It is called "Faith-Based" for a reason. You cannot use scriptures of the Supreme Being, to support the existence of the Supreme being when the source of the enlightened scriptures is alleged to be the very same Supreme Being. That is the fallacy of Circular Reasoning.

Faith-Based beliefs are taken to be truth without proof or evidence.

Christians cannot deny the existence of Magic and Alchemy - or - condemn Rituals - when they routinely practice such activity. → And that opens the door to an entirely different realm. Christians cannot deny the existence of Witches and Warlocks - when Christians have Deacons, Priests, Bishops, and Cardinals. Christians cannot deny the existence of The Guardians of the North, East, South, and West - when the Christians have Guardian Angles, Archangels, Seraphim, and Cherubim. Christians cannot deny the existence of Alchemy Transmutation - when the Christians turn water and bread into consecrated host and wine of the Eucharist - and must be stored in a tabernacle on a church altar.

Either you have faith, or you do not.

Once again, I apologize if I have offended anyone. My intention is to provoke a level of thought.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

Well, I don't agree with that at all.

You gave a sales pitch that was based on people liking eternal rememberance. Look at the treat title. Look at the OP.

And, I pointed out that whether someone LIKES a proposition (such as heaven or eternity) is not an indication of whether those features are actually available - whether they are true.

As for other content of your posts on on this thread, I'd point out that you tend to wander all over the place in your posts. I dont see a reason to feel it necessary to respond to the entire range of what you stuff into each of your posts, especially when it is off the topic stated in the thread title.

 

Noted.

The following remarks are NOT directed at you personally,
but rather are directed to all those that oppose what they call
"circular reasoning."

From the Christian point of view what is called "circular reasoning"
is demanded of the Christian. See 2 Timothy 3:13-17 below.

Bible believing Christians believe that 2 Timothy 3:13-17 means
what it says, namely that "All Scripture is God-breathed." that
means that the Bible is true because the Bible says
the Bible is true. If you do not want to read OP's and posts
written by people that believe that, then you do not want to read
my OP's or my posts. There is no Force that is drawing anyone to
read my OP"s or my posts.

What do you think I am going to do? Abandon my Christian faith just
because you do not appreciate what you call "circular reasoning"?
Just because you call it a fallacy? I will never do that. Never.

My belief that "all Scripture is God-breathed" and is therefore
true --- is consistent with Christian doctrine.

2 Timothy 3:13-17 , , ,
"while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving
and being deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have
learned and have become convinced of, because you know
those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you
have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you
wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture
is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting
and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may
be thoroughly equipped for every good work" ___The Apostle Paul
in .2 Timothy 3:13-17

Best.

JAG


``

 

To be fair, he asked if we want to remember our own good deeds forever. It not being possible doesn't mean we can't want it. I think he may be upset that we are not narcicists and that we arent bummed out by this reality. He thinks its his place to tell us what we should feel and what we should want, etc.

 

Look at the thread title. He went further than that.

He used that possible desire as a sales pitch for his religion - offering his religion as a solution for that desire.

I believe that desire is real. Mankind has created large numbers of religions to address issues such as the one JAG mentions. That part is in evidence.

But, that desire for a solution does NOT support the idea that ANY solution exists - let alone the one that JAG chooses to promote.

 

You were wrong. Very unhealthy and very unrealistic.

False.

Liking is a good thing.
Linking is often Step # 1 that evolves into stronger good feelings.

And a splendid thread title it is too.

And a magnificent OP it is too -- one that makes good sense
and honors the heroic and the desire to remember the heroic
forever.

On your atheistic lights, you have the same ultimate destiny as
does a Roach and a Bug. .And a house plant. There is no heroic
remembrance in ending up with the same identical ultimate destiny
as a Bug which is ceasing to exist oblivion.

Let us rejoice together at this paragraph from the OP.

JAG Wrote
"Here on this spiritual ground your heroic action would
matter for all Eternity. It would be FOREVER in your mind
that you had performed a noble heroic action that helped
other people at great cost to you. It would be known by untold
billions of human beings who were sharing Eternal Life with you.
It would matter to YOU and to THEM . . . FOREVER."___JAG

``

And I pointed out that you are not the Authority on what is, or is not,
true.

JAG

 

I have a bright cheerful hopeful optimistic religion -- one that is filled
with hope and good cheer and eternal life -- unlike your Religion of Atheism
that has no long term ultimate hope and no long term ultimate good cheer
rather your Religion Of Atheism has only doom and gloom and defeatism
and despair with regard to the ultimate destiny-End when you die and
have the identical same ultimate destiny-End as does a "road kill" critter l
ike a squashed squirrel. This is very sad.

JAG

`

 

And that is certainly true of your goat herders book and the god of contradictions they made up!

 

I have never claimed to be an authrotiy on heaven or eternity.

That has been ALL you.

 

Religion has to be addressed as a search for truth...

... not as a comparison of prizes.

 

I said you were no Authority on truth.

False.
I am not an authority on anything.
I am just one man standing up for what he believes.

By the way , , ,
You do not have to read my OP's or my posts.
Thread participation is 100% voluntary.
Is there some Force out there that draws you to my OP's?
Is there some Force that compels you to read my posts?

JAG

``

 

Truth.
You are no Authority on what is, or is not, the truth.

You have your ideas about what is true and so does
everybody else.

I do not know which side of the political aisle you
are on -- but its a good bet you are a Liberal Democrat
(you can correct me if I am incorrect on that} -- and if
you are a Liberal Democrat then "your presidential
candidate" is Joe Biden a Roman Catholic and if you
vote you will be voting for a Christian, right? He believes
in many beliefs that you obviously hate and despise.
Here at this point you can tell me how you "don't care
what a person's religion is" that you're just a disinterested
"seeker of truth:" that will "follow the evidence anywhere
it leads". As you practice your Religion Of Atheism.

JAG


``

 

I didn't claim to be an authority on truth.

It is YOU who is pitching a religion - which can only mean that you think you are an authority on truth.

As for your comments on elections, NO candidate will have identical beliefs to those of ANY voter. In the case of a presidential candidate, I would point out that personal beliefs on any topic aren't even necessarily the issue. In a very real way, our president needs to marshall our best combined intelligence. So, a key question is whether the candidate can listen to the wise consultation of those who are experts.

 

You hold forth on what is and is not true constantly -- just
like most everybody else does.

It is YOU who is pitching the Religion Of Atheism.

False

Put any Spin on it that suits you, what I said is still the truth.
If you are a Liberal Democrat and if you vote --- then you
will be voting for Joe Biden a practicing Catholic and
Joe believes in many ideas and beliefs that you obviously
hate and despise.

JAG

Bible Verse For Today

"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow
and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human
tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather
than on Christ."___Colossians 2:8


``

 

I don't sell atheism nor do I propose what is truth.

I do point out bad logic and misconceptions.

The main problem with Christianity is and always has been the disinterest in following the words of Jesus.

Conquering Iraq? Ethnic cleansing of Palestine? Fighting against healthcare for all? The culture of wealth when Jesus tells the rich man to sell his stuff to help the poor? The choice not to help, but to judge the lives of others. The list goes on and on.

Why would I be opposed to the message of Jesus concerning how to live ones life here on Earth?

Don't we need MORE of that?

 

Incorrect you do sell atheism.
You sell the atheist worldview -- its "built-into your posts"
just as my Christianity is built into my posts.

Incorrect . You DO propose what is true.
Here you are below doing exactly that:

WillReadMore Writes:
I do point out bad logic and misconceptions.

The main problem with Christianity is and always
has been the disinterest in following the words of Jesus.

Conquering Iraq? Ethnic cleansing of Palestine?
Fighting against healthcare for all? The culture of
wealth when Jesus tells the rich man to sell his
stuff to help the poor? The choice not to help,
but to judge the lives of others. The list goes
on and on.

Why would I be opposed to the message of
Jesus concerning how to live ones life here on Earth?

Don't we need MORE of that?

Your views on what is, or is not, bad logic and misconceptions
are no more than your opinions. How so? Because YOU are
not the Authority on what is, or is not, bad logic and
misconceptions. You have your opinions about that and
so does most everybody else on the planet.

False.
And not only false --but it demonstrates an amazing lack
of knowledge about the reality of what Christendom does
in the world to help suffering humanity.

Here is a list of the top 10 Christian Charities and they do
a HUGE amount of good and they DO follow the example
of the Lord Jesus. And these top 10 are only a tiny part of
the HUGE-ENORMOUS charity giving of worldwide
Christendom.

The Top Ten Christian Charities
1. Samaritan’s Purse: Helping in Jesus’ Name
2. Compassion International
3. Lutheran World Relief: Sustainable Development, Lasting Promise
4. Operation Blessing International: Breaking the Cycle of Suffering
5. Advancing Native Missions: Learn, Connect, Engage
6. Children’s Hunger Fund: Gospel-Centered Mercy Ministry
7. The Salvation Army: Doing the Most Good
8. Catholic Relief Services: Faith, Action, Results
9. Lifeline Christian Mission: Restoring Hope Among the Nations
10. Food For The Poor: Saving Lives, Transforming Communities, Renewing Hope
https://www.theologydegrees.org/best-christian-charities/

Incorrect.
Christendom and Christianity had nothing to do with the Iraq
War and with what goes on in Palestine. Your claim is based
upon your anti-Christian biases -- surrounding both these
issues is a HUGE-ENORMOUS list of other factors that can
be "brought to bear" upon these subjects -- its not as simple
as some folks claim it is.

Christianity does not do that.
You're not making any sense at all on these issues/
Christendom does not fight against health care for all.

You are so misguided it amazing.
You do not help the poor by having men who know how to create
wealth and how to create jobs , , , having them sell their possessions
and give the proceeds to the poor -- the poor will quickly consume
them -- and then their will BE NO MORE GOODIES -- because the
men who know how to create wealth and jobs -- are now -- thanks
to WillReadMore --- are now THEMSELVES one the poor who need
a handout. You liberal Democrats do not understand how wealth is
created. Wealth is created through CAPITALISM and Free Enterprise
and through Conservative Economic Principles -- and NOT through
Liberal give-away political policies.

That is pure nonsense and nothing more than your anti-Christian
biases and prejudices. See that list of the top ten Christian Charities
up-post.

Who said you were? Not me.

We do -- but we do NOT need your Liberal interpretation
of what the Lord Jesus and the Bible teaches on how to help
others -- and it is NOT by giving away all you possess.
The notion that the Bible {or the or the Lord Jesus} wants men
to sell their possession and give the proceeds to the poor is
incorrect. This policy would wreck families all over America
and we would have families living in cardboard boxes under
bridges like the homeless people do -- because they bought
into your Liberal interpretation of the what the Lord Jesus
taught about how to help poor people.


JAG


``

 

Look at JAG directly argue against what Jesus said to do.

 

I haven't opposed Christianity as a religion. I have opposed a few views taken by some Christians where those views do not comport with what is found by observation.

Yes, there are some Christian charities. That's great.

However, the majority of this nation claim Christianity with by far the majority of our leaders making that claim.

One can't just excuse what the USA does both locally and abroad by saying "the government did it". Those acts are DIRECTED by a Christian majoirty - both as representing a Christian majority nation and as the acts of office holders the majority of whom claim Christianity.

Let's remember that we are a Christian nation. That isn't something we get to claim only when something good is done. It applies to EVERY ACT we do as a nation.

If Christians weren't interested in conquering Iraq we wouldn't have done so. let's remember that it was Billy Graham who tried to convince Nixon to bomb the farmers in North Vietnam for the purpose of causing economic devestation to the people.

If Christians were interested in assuring that those without means had equal access to health care (like every other first nation assures) then we wouldn't be taking both legal and legiislative action to reduce the number who get healthcare coverage.

If Christians were less interested in creating a few billionairs we would be working on the historically significant disparity in income that leaves more than half of American making so little that they don't even pay income tax - a problem that is getting worse. All across America we have a serious problem of homelessness. And, with COVID it is even more serious as more unemployed are driven into deep poverty - with our Christian congress unwilling to help.

Etc.

 

Is that why most Capitalists are rich and their workers poor?

 

First, you are not going to have any success with "selling that" up there.
You can preach it 24/7/365 but nobody that matters is going to "buy it."

On your principle Christianity gets the blame for all the sins, faults,
and moral failures, of the entire nation of the United States.

This means that on your principle American Christianity gets the
blame for the following sins:
{1} widespread pornography {legalized}
{2} nude dancing {legalized}
{3} abortion right up to the day of birth {the baby being 9 months old --- legalized}
{4} prostitution {legalized in some states eg. Nevada}
{5} prostitution {illegal but tolerated in a large number of American cities.}
{6} the large numbers of homeless people in America.
{7} income disparity -- the existence of the economic Lower, Middle, and Upper Classes
{8} and everything else that makes up the long list of what is wrong with America.

Second, on your principle, if you want to be consistent, then Christianity gets the
credit for all the good things Americans do - - and that list is HUGE-ENORMOUS
and it grows larger by the day. However, we can rest assured that you will NOT be
listing and celebrating the thousands and thousands of good things that Christianity
should get the credit for based upon your principle. You will be "silent as a little
mouse" on that. Bet on it.

____________

The truth is that the solution to America's problems are MORE Christian Churches
and MORE economic Conservatism to unleash Free Enterprise and to unleash
America's entrepreneurs to create wealth by creating a steady increase of jobs.

Add this: Elect more political and economic Conservatives to reduce the
size of Uncle Sugar {the US Government} and get the government
regulators OFF the backs of America's job creators -- those highly talented
American entrepreneurs that know how to create wealth. America now has a
$20 trillion dollar annual economy and we need people who know how to
double that.

________

By the way, Christianity will eventually Christianize the world and this
is the true solution to all human problems. All human problems are,
at their root, spiritual problems, and there are no permanent long
term political solutions to spiritual problems -- there are only
spiritual solutions to spiritual problems -- and we start with
John 3:16 , , "For God so loved the world that He gave His
one and only son, that whoever believes in Him shall not
perish but have Eternal Life. It is NOT possible for any nation to
have long term permanent political and economic success apart
from John 3:16 and the Lord Jesus and His God the Father.

JAG

``

 

I think you have NO idea how our system works. It is true that the majority of US citizens self identify as Christian.

What you are missing is that our government is secular.

DRAMATICALLY NOT like the Bible, America has instituted some basic freedoms that must be honored unless there is VERY good reason.

So, your 1 through 5 are cases where those rights are not being abridged.

And, your 6 and 7 have to do with the unwillingness of the American people to work toward solving these problems.

If you want to state something after that, then please address it as an issue of government.

I believe that our success has come from how we set up and run our government.

That includes the establishment of individual rights, the separation of church and state, our careful brand of capitalism moderated by a wide range of laws to keep it from killing us (the SEC, banking regulation, patents/copyrights, etc., etc.), and other features.

Suggesting these features so important to our success came from the Bible is just plain preposterous. The Bible says nothing about individual rights. It doesn't suggest dividing religion from government, thought at times there are calls to accept existing leadership even when it is FAR from Christian. There is nothing to suggest capitalism as we know it.

There IS Mosaic law requiring the wealthy to provide aid to the poor upon request and providing for forgiveness of that debt - an early demonstration of laws regulating aid to the poor instead of leaving aid to the poor as individual acts of charity.

 

Your lack of knowledge about Capitalism and Free Enterprise
is utterly amazing. You have near to zero understanding of
how the American economic system creates wealth. Your
Liberalism is most likely the source of your lack of knowledge
and your near to total misunderstanding of how this magnificent
American nation actually works to create wealth here in the
Real World and NOT in the Fantasy Land Of Liberalism which
is based on the dangerous principle of BIG GOVERNMENT
using the FORCE of law backed up by police with guns to
FORCE the redistribution of wealth under the control of
Uncle Sugar ie Big Intrusive Government. And that is what
Liberalism supports and desires. Liberalism is a nation-wrecker.

You do not understand your own position.
You pick & choose between the "secular" and the "Christian"
when it suits your personal Liberal prejudices.

Your ignorance of what the Bible actually says and teaches is
utterly amazing since you continually "hold forth" on what you
think the Bible says -- when you simply do NOT know and
do NOT understand what the Bible actually says on these
issues of which you speak.

Yeah the right to murder a human baby person right up
to the day of birth when the human baby person is a full
9 months old. Do YOU support that "freedom"?
Most Liberals DO support the right to MURDER a human
baby person and they cloak their support for MURDER as
"human rights."

Its just like a Liberal to call {1] through {5} human "rights" when
what it really is, is human SHAME and human PURE EVIL.
{1} widespread pornography {legalized}
{2} nude dancing {legalized}
{3} abortion right up to the day of birth {the baby being 9 months old --- legalized}
{4} prostitution {legalized in some states eg. Nevada}
{5} prostitution {illegal but tolerated in a large number of American cities.}

False.
{6} the large numbers of homeless people in America.
{7} income disparity -- the existence of the economic Lower, Middle, and Upper Classes

You do NOT know what is in the minds and hearts of the American people
regarding {6} and {7} up there.

No.
Our success has come from the fact that a large number of Americans
honor the God that created them and try to live to please the Lord -- and
from the FACT that America was built on the foundation of Christianity
and anybody who says otherwise is ignorant of America history.

False.
Your ignorance of America history is near to zero -- America
was founded on Christian principles.

Not true.

"Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the
rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly;
defend the rights of the poor and needy."___Proverbs 31:8-9

And Proverbs 31:8-9 is just one {1} of DOZENS of Bible truths
that boldly teach human rights.

Here is another one:

“Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?
Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe them,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?"
___Isaiah 58:6-7



____________

Here is a lengthy Wikipedia article titled The Role Of Christianity In Civilization.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_of_Christianity_in_civilization#Education

__________


Read these again , , , and then see if you can still say "
The Bible says nothing about individual rights."

“Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?
Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe them,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?"
___Isaiah 58:6-7


"Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the
rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly;
defend the rights of the poor and needy."___Proverbs 31:8-9


"The Bible says nothing about individual rights.""___WillReadMore

Best.

JAG

 

We can add this Bible verse strongly advocating individual
human rights:

“If you do away with the yoke of oppression,
with the pointing finger and malicious talk,
and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the oppressed,
then your light will rise in the darkness,
and your night will become like the noonday.
11The Lord will guide you always;
he will satisfy your needs in a sun-scorched land . . ."
___Isaiah 58:9-11

So far we have three:
{1} Isaiah 58:6-7
{2} Proverbs 31:8-9
{3} Isaiah 58:9-7

"The Bible says nothing about individual rights."___WillReadMore

Best.

JAG