I would be a pro-choice person. I reject the arguments regarding the sentient and similar things- in that I think these are points chosen to over-ride what I feel is the basic and pivotal one. That is the right of any individual to have full control over their own body, and those who have no direct part don't get to dictate the decisions. Discussion beyond that is an attempt to say they do; and that must never become a reason to displace the pivotal one.
Oh it’s there. Read the OP again. Read carefully the part about everyone being 100% convinced of their position.
~ New Jersey is the place for you ! Abortion at any stage of pregnancy is legal . { I wonder how many who voted for this legislation have ever looked at an ultrasound of a 12-week fetus .. ? }
I am wrong that there are not people on both sides of the isle who are convinced that their answer to the abortion question is correct, and everyone else with the opposite answer is wrong? Really? And your proof for that is some medical journals on ethics (which you couldn’t even be bothered to cite) that probably less than 1% of the population has read?
I read them 40 years ago. They are likely to be in a journal of ethics, although a book would be a better choice. Something intended for the lay public would be much easier to read.
As I eluded to earlier… it’s difficult for me to accept such levels of empathy for women as you seem to have when the laws stand in such a hypocritical manner as it is. What I mean is, your entire argument up there was essentially predicated on we should feel such sympathy for women because they have to reckon with the consequences of either having a baby or losing it. The “deeply personal” and immensely impactful act of having or losing a child. However. When we view that same act through the lens of a male. Nobody gives a crap if he is forced to have a child or he’s forced to lose his child due to abortion. Nobody cares that it’s immensely painful or deeply personal to him to lose a child. He has NO RIGHTS whatsoever in regards to the birth of that child. She can kill the child or force him to ruin his life, not be able to “follow his dreams of an education” or that he now might have to “live less of a life” than he would have. Why is it that those things are of the utmost importance when we are talking about a woman, but nobody gives a damn when it’s a man? Furthermore if that’s how men are treated, why shouldn’t women be treated the same? If nobody gives a damn if forcing a man to have a baby or kill his baby is going to ruin his life… why should we give a damn if it does the same to a woman? We screw men over EVERY SINGLE DAY in regards to abortion and their child. They have ZERO say in whether their unborn child lives or dies. If the woman kills his baby it’s, “too bad dude, deal with it”. If she decides to keep the baby and force him to lose his education and dreams it’s, “too bad bro you shouldn’t have made a mistake and got her pregnant. Lose all of your dreams and deal with it”. Oh but that’s totally unacceptable to do to a woman right?
In my view, my opinion. everyone directly involved with a pregnancy counts, in some way. The father, unfortunately- is quite often the reason an abortion takes place. Either because they have no idea who it is, or the father is totally irresponsible and will neither support or parent the child. The consequences for the woman are intense and personal. The consequences for the father- half of them don't even know they are fathers.IF they cared, IF they saw fathering a child as a bright spot in life- he would be there, there would be a family- and not an abortion. Earlier this year there was an article of the burdens of child support on an absent father. A young black man (19 year old) was complaining he had no future, because child support left him nothing. Seem he was paying support for THREE children- two of which were born on consecutive days to different mothers. Obviously, there is a good chance he had fathered other children too that he was not yet having to pay for. His agony had nothing to do with the welfare or future of his children or their mothers- just the hopeless poverty he felt imposed on him by having to help support them. The focus IS on the mother, because the burdens from the start of pregnancy fall far more heavily on her than the father, and she can't just walk away and forget it. IF you are a responsible father, the chance of you having your child aborted are virtually zero. IF. The fathers have great responsibility- but the burden falls first and foremost on the mothers. Stop feeling sorry for irresponsible fathers, they are not the victims, they are the causal factor.
No see you don’t know what you’re talking about. I’ve been there. I had a girlfriend whom I got pregnant when I was younger. I wanted to keep the baby, I wanted to be a good father and a good parent and a good husband. I had dreams for my life but when I realized I had impregnated my girlfriend I was ready to sacrifice those dreams and do the right thing. I was willing to quit college and go get a job. Which I did. You know what she decided? She decided she wanted to go to university in NY and was afraid a child would “ruin her life”. So she murdered our baby with no consent or even consideration from me. She showed up one day after being nearly three months pregnant and guess what? She wasn’t pregnant anymore because she aborted our child. But y’all don’t care. I just need to suck it up and deal with it. Whereas I’m supposed to have the UTMOST empathy and care about what it might do to her and her life if we take away her choice. It’s fine that I had my child murdered and forcefully taken away from me with ABSOLUTELY ZERO consideration for my life and had ZERO choice in the matter. Furthermore if I had decided that I wanted to be a massive selfish piece of **** like she decided but she wanted to have the baby. Would anybody give a damn about my dreams or my life? Nope **** my life she’s gonna force me to take care of a child whether I want to or not. Lose my dreams, force me to quit college to pay child support, etc etc I fail to understand why I should have such consideration and empathy for women when they have NONE for us.
I agree that she shut you out and you would have reason to feel the anger over it. But do you realize that such a situation is the rare exception? IF your opinion overall hinges on that one personal experience, you ignore the others? For example, this is a rampant issue in the black community. While abortions for black women are 4X the rate of those for white, it's also true that about 70% of black children are born into single parent situations. That girlfriend was a larger part of this situation than you in many ways- and partnerships only work well when the constructs are voluntary and people agree because they want to . That obviously wasn't the case; she wasn't willing to alter her dreams to accommodate yours. It also goes back to the initial responsibilities- precluding the risk of pregnancy when it's not desired by both, rather than taking the risk. We usually place that obligation on the woman, but if fact the responsibility is equal. Was that risk discussed? Even thought of? Just a condom would have eliminated the entire issue, but obviously you did not take steps to insure this couldn't happen. Works both ways; she could well feel that what she went through was your fault, and had you acted responsibly, she would not be in the position of deciding between you and abortion. Nothing we do will eliminate all abuse in anything. In terms of writing law, the conditions forming it must be based on the overall issues, not the individual ones, and I doubt they could write a law that would serve all the possible scenarios.
Getting a woman pregnant does not mean you own her. What a woman might say if abortion is banned: """Would anybody give a damn about my dreams or my life? Nope **** my life she’s (they) gonna force me to take care of a child whether I want to or not. Lose my dreams, force me to quit college to pay child support, etc etc""""
Great then I have no reason to feel bad for them having their choice taken away. In fact, no man does. Thanks for confirming.
Exactly and supposedly that’s unacceptable. But they do it to us ALL the time. Every single day some woman forces a man to pay child support that he doesn’t want to pay for a child he doesn’t want and screw his life up. But we can’t do that to women? Why not? What makes women so much better than men that they’re above that? They don’t have to suffer the consequences of their actions. But men do.
FoxHastings said: ↑ Getting a woman pregnant does not mean you own her. What a woman might say if abortion is banned: """Would anybody give a damn about my dreams or my life? Nope **** my life she’s (they) gonna force me to take care of a child whether I want to or not. Lose my dreams, force me to quit college to pay child support, etc etc"""" WHY do you think it's unfair if applied to men but fair if applied to women? ""Would anybody give a damn about my dreams or my life? Nope **** my life she’s (they) gonna force me to take care of a child whether I want to or not. Lose my dreams, force me to quit college to pay child support, etc etc"""" Hey, if you think it's unfair why don't ya just stop having sex?? !! You know, what people keep telling women...
It’s NOT. That’s my ENTIRE POINT. Its NOT fair to apply it to women and it’s NOT fair to apply it to men. However if you’re gonna not give a damn that it’s unfairly applied to men, why should men give a damn when it’s unfairly applied to women?
And what you confirm is that your responsibility is irrelevant, but your complaints take priority over everything. Not uncommon. Pretty much the reasons why this conflict exists. Any effort to end abortion will have similar results to prohibition and the war on drugs. Nothing gets taken away- it just gets driven underground and continues in a less healthy state.
It's like the dualism of the "homicide question". In war, you're allowed to kill enemies and get rewarded for it. On the other hand, killing someone in peacetime is a capital crime, for which the perpetrator is severely punished. Likewise, some define a fetus as a human being, others define it only as a precursor of human life. IMHO there'll never be an answer to either question, what's right or wrong.
No I’m willing to take responsibility. I just think if men are supposed to accept responsibility then so are women. If women are allowed to abdicate responsibility for a child then so should men be allowed. YOU are the one advocating for a state of unequal rights. Not me. Moreover let’s make murdering a baby a charge of murder and see how many women are willing to take that risk. I’d be willing to bet the house that the number of abortions AND unwanted pregnancies would drop drastically. Furthermore the number of doctors who would be willing to partake in an underground abortion at risk of being charged with accessory to murder would be essentially nil. And as an added benefit the rate of promiscuity would drop drastically along with STD’s
It's not a double standard. That only occurs when you base everything on your perception alone and deny the position of others. If you can't understand or relate to the position of anyone else, what their experience is, because you refuse to look or try to understand how they would feel in their position- then you are using a different set of parameters for them as opposed to how you see yourself. That is the double standard, and that is what I see YOU doing. I think you are part right, but that is the only part you can relate too. As I said, perhaps in the future your perspective will broaden.
