The world is a far more dangerous place

Discussion in 'Latest US & World News' started by EarthSky, Feb 2, 2019.

  1. EarthSky

    EarthSky Well-Known Member

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    Lol. I am sixty and remember the cold war well. Putin is a very different creature than Khrushchev was and the Soviet Union was very different from Russia. In many ways it is NATO that is pushing the envelope and Putin who is being reactive. Don't forget that Baker III famously promised that NATO would never move one inch past Germany.

    Putin has to find a way to defend his borders without retaliating dangerously against a superior force. All he has is diplomacy, tactics and the threat of nukes in Europe's backyard as the last straw.

    I don't like Putin's social conservatism nor his authoritarianism but the mistake the West makes is in casting him as a cartoonish villain rather than the pragmatic, strategic opportunist that he is.
     
  2. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    "Russia has jeopardized the United States' security interests, and we can no longer be restricted by the treaty while Russia shamelessly violates it,"
    "We will move forward with developing our own military response options and will work with NATO and our other allies and partners to deny Russia any military advantage from its unlawful conduct,"
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...u-s-russia-nuclear-weapons-treaty/2737306002/
    What part of this do you disagree with?
     
  3. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Defend his borders? Is that what he is doing with Crimea, Ukraine and the black sea? Is that what he is doing with his aggressive cyber war? Does he need hypersonic missiles to defend his borders?

    I totally agree that he is pragmatic and a rather good strategist as befitting a senior KGB operative. But, he is also perhaps the biggest thief in history, and abuser of his constitutional power and a murderer, which definitely puts him in the villain category. But when he stages pictures of him being a "man's man" and "true leader of men" I at least attribute some cartoonish character traits to him.
     
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  4. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't disagree with the notion of "denying" russia any military advantage. I merely disagree on how to do it.

    Personally I would have imposed even more sanctions on russia. I would have actively solicited international support against their nefarious activities, BEFORE, I "officially" started another global nuclear arms race.

    Odd how Trump doesn't care if a treaty is upheld or broken or even ratified when he withdraws from them.
     
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  5. Margot2

    Margot2 Well-Known Member

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    And Trump has no background. He's a soundbite student.
     
  6. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Ah. So you agree with the reasons, just not the action. Oh well.
    How is that relevant here... or anywhere else?
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
  7. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Denying adversaries the opportunity for military advantage has been the DOCTRINE of the united states since WW2. Or has the fact that the US militarily outspent the rest of the world by at least an order of magnitude escaped you? Or perhaps all those nuclear proliferation agreements and arms limitation agreements were merely diplomatic time wasting?

    I do disagree with trump's kneejerk responses. I prefer a little more contemplation, consultation and coordination in the decision making process of world leaders.



    Gee I don't know. I guess it is relevant because we are currently discussing the "relevance" of his withdrawal from the nuclear arms deal as a "first step" instead of a last one?
     
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  8. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    And so... as I said... you don't take issue with why he did what he did, just what he did.
    Oh well.
    Did Trump break any treaties by the act of withdrawing from them?
     
  9. ArchStanton

    ArchStanton Well-Known Member

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    Very correct. From Russia's point of view, they are being surrounded by U.S. and NATO aggression:

    [​IMG]

    I happen to agree with his view's on social conservatism....it is certainly better than your average American liberal's view on social issues. Russia is now a federal republic just like our own.....claims of dictatorship are rooted in the fact that they don't have term limits on the Presidency, other than a prohibition on serving more than 2 consecutive terms. Thus Putin can serve 2 terms and skip one, then serve another 2 terms. He won't be eligible to run again in 2024, the next election cycle.

    Crimea voted to secede from Ukraine and then voted to join the Russian Federation. Given Crimea is made up of around 80% ethnic Russians and the Russian economy is much better than Ukraine's, it was an easy choice for the locals.

    Separatists in the Ukrainian states of Luhansk and Donetsk declared independence and want to form their own countries.

    When Gorbachev tore down the wall, he didn't leave Russian military bases in Germany......like we did.
     
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  10. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    Russia has always believed itself surrounded by aggressors, so there's nothing new here.
    Maybe because the Germans wanted American troops, not Russian troops, in their territory.
     
  11. ArchStanton

    ArchStanton Well-Known Member

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    You're not good at maps, are you?
     
  12. TOG 6

    TOG 6 Well-Known Member

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    I am. And history.
    You? Apparently not so much.
     
  13. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Donor

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    Foreigners only like it when the US goes to their assistance, but then complain that they didn't arrive soon enough.
     
  14. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Donor

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    And that's as you see it, Cerb. But between us and youse is the media, and the trash that they promote makes it difficult for anyone to get along - either in the States or with European allies. The BBC has always been the worst, or among the worst.
     
  15. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Donor

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    All that silliness was also applied to Ronald Reagan, and that's your history lesson for today.
     
  16. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Well-Known Member

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    There is no alternative if you dont want to see Americans peddling rich chinese businessmen aroud this country in rickshaws
     
  17. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Your memory is a tad faulty. Lots of stuff was applied to Ronnie, but being a russian kiss arse sure as hell wasn't one of them. The cold war was won on his watch, although the wall came down in Clinton's first year.
     
  18. Jonsa

    Jonsa Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I bet you can see that today in big cities with "rickshaws" or pedicabs.
     
  19. cerberus

    cerberus Well-Known Member Donor

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    A 'friend' in the sense that I have your interests at the same level as my own, not a bosom friend.

    Well I don't know what sort of opinions you welcome, and which ones offend you. [​IMG]

    I've praised president Trump for his diplomatic initiative in NK, but I've criticised him for his illegal and unwanted incursions into Syria. So you win some, and you lose some.

    I'd have thought you'd be glad of the opportunity to correct them - you're certainly articulate enough to do so. And it is the raison d'etre of discussion forums??
     
  20. Fred C Dobbs

    Fred C Dobbs Well-Known Member Donor

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    Anyone who thinks Trump is a 'Russian kiss arse' is as goofy as those who criticized Reagan. The destruction of the Berlin Wall began in late 1989, November, and I was there in December.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019

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