Theists - How can you believe? Seriously ...

For one (reason for "belief") It's easier. Two; it's what we were taught. Three; Although science has opened many doors to understanding the microcosm and macrocosm, truly comprehending what lies beyond these doors is complex and somewhat confusing and in many cases is in disarray. (back to reason one). Four; fear. We are conscious, self aware and have a strong urge to survive. Science assures us that there's actually no chance of that ever occurring. But we really like being alive (most of us anyway). Religion tells us; Yes. when this life ends, another begins. This assurance fulfills a primal need that science doesn't. Survival. Belief in science alone negates purpose. It doesn't address 'why', only 'how'. Whether science is right or wrong is not relevant. It may make more sense than our religious answers, but it is somewhat discouraging for our primal need...to survive.
Pragmatically; if science is correct in it's 'proving by way of observation' that life is merely an accident brought about by the chance combining of some acids and proteins brought to this planet by way of comets and that the result (humans) are nothing more than meat and bone with an electrical unit on the top. Then so be it..but there's no harm done if one prefers to believe otherwise. After all, what rule applies to 'pointlessness' or 'luck' or 'chance'? Conversely, if religion offers a chance that 'survival' will continue on in some way, shape or form after our electrical meat/bone has run it's course, what harm is done in subscribing to a belief in that?
I would think that the urge to survive is a basic tenet of evolution. Or electric meat/bones wouldn't be driven to evolve. Why bother? So belief in something other than the 'cut and dry' matter of fact cold hard facts that science is offering up would appear to be pro-evolution. Almost a necessary function. The necessary function.

 

I can see how you find it unbelievable. The natural world doesn't explain how a supernatural being could act outside of the rules of nature. If you think about the question, therein lies your answer. If God were all powerful, He can do those things.

 

In other words you are not a traditional deist. A textbook definition of deism; de·ism
ˈdēizəm/
noun
noun: deism

belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. The term is used chiefly of an intellectual movement of the 17th and 18th centuries that accepted the existence of a creator on the basis of reason but rejected belief in a supernatural deity who interacts with humankind.

I am a deist and a theist lol. I think the belief in God and religion can be separated.

reva

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Of course God could do those things. That tells me there is a reason he does not do those things.

reva

 

Well, even in the materialistic scientific community there is happening a return to theism. Anatheism is what Rupert Sheldrake is calling it.

It seems that Rupert says, being a scientist, that when he talks to scientists out of the academic environment, they admit to not being atheists, yet academia requires that they have to be, or they risk losing their jobs. lol.

Now, they are not buying into the fundamentalist image of god, but a much more sophisticated god, a comic consciousness sort of chap, that thought cannot touch, nor know.

http://www.sheldrake.org/audios/rediscovering-god

 

I have the ability to get up, walk across my house and go to bed. I will now do it.

 

Maybe you will maybe you wont.

Einstein said something like I have no doubt that God created the universe I do wonder if he had a choice in how it was created~ That kind of sums up what I meant.

reva

 

I really don't find much offensive when it comes to what a creative brain can invent. I don't take any of these creations seriously, and see them as entertaining, mostly.

On a more realistic level, I find the implications of quantum mechanics mind blowing enough, so that I don't have to look past that field of science.

Now, what it think will happen is that as that field advances, the advancement of it will finally reconcile science and religion, which will purify religious beliefs, making them much more acceptable than an old bearded man sitting on a throne somewhere, smiting those who (*)(*)(*)(*) him off. I think it is inevitable. But remember, QM isn't the run of the mill materialistic reductionism. Materialism can never have a place for a god, for it is based upon the idea, in its first assumption, that only matter exists, and the laws that govern it, and this view of course limits.

 

At least you are still open, which many atheists are not. And the ones that are not open, are just as fundamentalistic in their beliefs as the religious fundamentalists, which makes them the kind of people you really don't want to be around for very long. LOL

In so far as evidence, given the nature of this, I doubt one can find the evidence in what we consider to be the external world. If evidence is to be found it would be in the very consciousness that is aware of the external world. The hard problem of consciousness is where perhaps one day the evidence will be found. In the consciousness which is doing the "looking" not in what it is looking at.

Or as most religious founders have conveyed to humanity, the kingdom is within consciousness, and not in what consciousness looks at. I personally thing we have been digging in the wrong place, and this is what makes most organized religion so absurd, in their beliefs. Just my opinion, as most people have opinions. Which is not worth much. Opinions bring no nourishment for humanity, they are just divisive, creating conflict, more conflict. Sometimes people even kill for these opinions. A heckuva paradigm.

 

After thinking about why man has had beliefs in a god of some sort, for perhaps all of our history here on this earth, it seems rather obvious as to why. And the reasons for these beliefs surely are things that need to be discussed.

First off, we are monkeys, and monkeys are curious critters. More curious than cats, IMO. So there is a natural curiousity when it comes to trying to understand why the universe exists, and what is our place in it. I think this is a very ancient longing, a longing to know. So there is that.

Then there is the universal need for the ego, the self image, which we consider to be the "me" to have not only physical security, but also a very important psychological security for this ego. We don't want to see it end with the death of the body. And its a deep yearning in most that it not come to an end, but to continue on. Which is psychological security. Just this in itself would tend to make the brain create illusions, and then believe in those illusions out of the need for security. So, we create the illusions, and then we believe in what we created.

Yet there is another reason that man has created religious beliefs, created gods. This reason comes from direct experience, that comes from various plant pyschedelics. Having indulge in such things many years ago, I can attest that consciousness is changed, and you are introduced to something the brain has never experienced. So, the experience itself expands and in this realm you can actually experience something that certainly tells us our general view of reality isn't the only view. Religion could have arisen from this, but also these non typical realms can be experienced without drugs, in various meditative practices that are very ancient.

Therefore I think we should have a culture which includes the use of these drugs as a rite of passage. Personally I would love to see every atheist consume DMT, a regimen of this, and in my opinion this would show these guys something they are not aware of. And it would change a great many minds. Richard Dawkins should be held down and forced to consume it. LOL. Just kidding. In fact all fundamentalists whether religious or atheistic should have to consume it. I think it would cure what is ailing them. Perhaps then, the killing would finally be stopped.

 

Near death experiencer Bruce F. MacDonald asserts that meditation can produce a state of mind similar to an NDE.

http://www.thomastwin.com/10 A Background to Silence.html

 

I guess if I labeled myself the word might be something like Theodeist. Years of study have convinced me that something like the God of the Hebrew bible used the big bang to produce a life giving universe. All the information needed to make the universe unfold as it is was and is contained in the material universe. Of course like a quantum particle in superposition the universe was free as we are to chose our destiny, and that is one reason God does not tweak his creation often, too many observations cause the universes and our free will to be destroyed. When I hear why did I choose the christian religion instead of any of the hundreds of other religions I can not give a soundbyted answer. Its not too difficult to understand but its very difficult to explain. Most people write books to explain why two billion people chose the bible and the Hebrew personal God over all others. I also need a near book length explanation to describe in detail why I too chose the God of Abraham.

reva

 

Wow!

Great explanation Reva!

I am so glad to read that you do not see a contradiction between the idea of a Big Bang event with the Christian Bible.

 

The universe is full of wonders my friend and science is endeavoring to find them all and quantify them. But science is a funny thing what is hard truth today will be silly tomorrow. For example spontaneous generation was accepted all through the world until a new scientific thought was put forward. Just as some of the science you take for granted will be seen as so much fiction some day. But the concept of God or an afterlife has been with us since man first asked "why." That concept has crossed all barriers whether it be distance, time, or culture. Notice how other concepts did not, take for example the South American cultures. They had advanced knowledge of time and mathematics. They had advanced building techniques and a well developed trade system and governance system. But the ideas of sea travel, gunpowder, and amazingly enough the wheel were a mystery. However what did the people of South America share with every other culture in the world? The idea of deity. True very different the Europe or Asia but why this concept? Why does mysticism exist in EVERY culture no matter how primitive or advanced?

Science is amazing but it has always failed to answer the important questions, "why am I here, where do I go from here, and who am I?" Those questions are beyond the grasp of our scientists as smart and as advanced as they are.

 

science has not 'failed' to answer such questions because it doesnt ask them in the first place. such notions are personal vanities, and have no more place in science than does asking why the tooth fairy needs our teeth.

 

See that is where you are wrong, there is no more important question in the whole universe. Questions that religion and faith try to answer in their own limited way.

 

In an "objective reality" (meaning it exists whether or not there are consciousnesses to observe it, which I do NOT believe), the placebo effect makes no sense. I know you're talking about "prayer", but if a patient, believing that he or she is taking medicine for this or that condition while in actuality is taking nothing more than a sugar pill gets better anyway, that doesn't make sense. If a medicine works, it works. If I get a headache, I take a pain killer, and the headache goes away. If I took a sugar pill, it wouldn't, unless the headache was being caused by low blood sugar. Therefore, belief plays a role. How large of one is hard to say, and probably impossible to quantify, but it's greater than zero.

Also, I'd point out that in an "objective reality", free will is an illusion. Because if reality is objective, than we're nothing but walking, talking electrochemical reactions, and our thoughts, actions, deeds, and decisions are based purely on the laws of physics.

Please note: While I am endorsing the general concept of a higher power, "god" if you must, I in no way am endorsing any human religion. Though I think a combination of Buddhism and Hinduism is closest to the actuality.

 

is this a joke?

really, is it? you actually made the observation that science evolves as more information is found or discovered, as though that were a bad thing. I assume you'd prefer to have died of the plague at 15, after a brutal life on a flat earth. go ahead, reply on your COMPUTER, from you climate controlled house, where you can expect to live for 80+ years in peace and safety.

the reason all of humanity has believed in hobgoblins since the cave, is because we were too stupid to understand the natural world, and we were (many still are) terrified of death.

 

Perhaps you should reread my post because you do not seem to get it at all? No where did I say science was a bad thing. I said it is fallible and incomplete. For all its wonders it cannot answer the questions that Religion does. Yet many embrace science as gospel (excuse the pun) when it has shown itself to be as fallible as the men that study it. Science does not have all the answers yet some believe that it does.

So because of this fear of death ALL cultures spontaneously came to believe in mysticism despite the fact that some never came in contact with the others? For all its flaws the concepts of Gods is a very complex thing. Not just magic but beings of greater power that define the universe, existing and interacting with the world. That is like every culture in the ancient world just suddenly thinking up he Socratic method. There is something more here then just simple fear for such a complex system of thought to be present in all cultures no matter their level of technological advancement.

 

science has as many answers as it has, and that is never ALL. it seeks knowledge constantly. it adjusts to new information, and being found wrong is a good thing - because it learns from mistakes.

people of every culture and place in history had three things in common which led to seeing spooks behind every cloud and rock - being human, being ignorant, and being terrified of death. with the limited but still prodigious intellect we have, is it even slightly a wonder the imagination ascribed invisible forces to things we didnt understand - which was pretty much everything. reading more into this very common and prosaic tendency is itself a modern version of the same thing. a failure to understand (or refusal to accept) the simple and natural mechanics behind it.

regarding this assertion that 'where did we come from' is the most important question on earth - that's an opinion you hold. vast numbers of people couldn't care less. myself included.

 

How can the Big Bang event and the Genesis account both be true? They have nothing in common.