I still think you are confusing homeopathy with naturopathy and alternative medicine https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/homeopathy# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturopathy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_medicine
The placebo effect is well known and why medicine uses “double blind” trials. Less well known is the nocebo effect. If you are convinced that a therapy will not work then it often doesn’t. And that is the issue with people becoming convinced that traditional medicine is ineffective - they can convince themselves it is not going to work so become non compliant and it doesn’t
Well that doesn't sound very effective does it? Basically you're describing a reverse placebo effect.
Yes it is. The NOCEBO effect is the opposite of the placebo effect. Take pain medication for example. I have two patients post - operative from something fairly minor like removal of a skin lesion patient one gets two Panadol/Tylenol and told “here these are the only pain relievers you get here - they won’t order you anything stronger” Patient two gets two Panadol/Tylenol and told “Here is some Tylenol, I know they are only “over the counter” meds but because of the special way they work they are the most effective medication for post operative pain I can give you” Which one of those patients will have less pain
Legally we cannot administer placebos but that does not stop us from using the placebo effect to say, enhance the effect of pain medication
Yep, our brains work both ways. Positive thoughts and negative thoughts impact our health. The laughter you brought up earlier is positive. Having a negative view of a drug or treatment can certainly cause unnecessary harm. I believe that’s why it’s important to focus on more objective evidence than hypotheticals. Of course it’s difficult to give full disclosure of risk without making treatments seem scary or negative. Referring back to something I said to Will, the effectiveness of acupuncture in a species that can only exhibit nocebo reactions is what straightened me out on that treatment. I deal with nocebo almost exclusively in most species I have to contend with. It’s definitely real.
Very much so. There was a landmark research study on cancer survival post operatively (don’t have a link and it was more than 20 years ago). They studied long term outcomes of people who had had cancer surgery and found that those who the surgeons/theatre staff talked about poor survival did in fact do worse than patients with the same conditions where theatre staff spiders not discuss eventual outcomes. Acupuncture though has a physiological effect beyond placebo https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/abs/10.7326/0003-4819-136-5-200203050-00010
Well, homeopathy IS placebo. One only had to look at who was making the statements to notice that the CDC and FDA were basing their findings, creations and recommendations based on science. The FACT is that American citizens were advised to IGNORE these recommendations. And, a significant percent of America did exactly that. I agree with your comment that all too often we wait for the farm more lucrative treatment rather than addressing causes. But, REMEMBER that our healthcare system is capitalist. Unlike in other countries, our entire medical system creates solutions when it is profitable. But, that wasn't the reason that US citizens ignored the FREE approaches to avoiding COVID - masks, avoiding groups, avoiding travel, etc. Those were strongly reported to be an assault on "freedom" - a callous use of COVID as a partisan political tool. I STRONGLY disagree with your last statement. You have shown NO evidence that the NIH isn't interested. Plus, the issue here has featured comparisons to homeopathy, where the deaths come by encouraging people to not seek medical help - a far different problem from that of ensuring the survival of those sick enough that they need to be inpatients.
Interesting! I don't actually know US law on that. It's a little complex. For example, there is latitude in using medicines off the listed purpose and doctors do administer tests that have FDA certification. If one asks doctors at significant hospitals they will undoubtedly say that have administered placeboes, as they have been involved in medical studies. Such studies are usually double-blind on tests of medicine, so the doctor is unaware.
Yes they get around it by “enrolling” the patient in the study with the clear understanding that they may not get the actual medication. They must have full permission of the patient and the patient can ask afterward what they got. The classic study was the ISIS II trial. International Study of Infarct Survival. Two drugs - aspirin and Streptokinase and we could ring Oxford to find out which arm the patient was on if for example they started bleeding. That study was never actually completed to the full numbers as they crunched the data half way through and survival was so overwhelming in the aspirin/ Streptokinase arm that it was considered unethical to continue the study
Agreed. We are just starting to figure out all the mechanisms of why acupuncture is effective. It’s fascinating. Another “phenomenon” that used to be dismissed out of hand that I find fascinating is fasting/autophagy. What used to be dismissed as religious-placebo turns out to be driven by very real and complex physiological processes. It’s important to examine and research these things, not just dismiss them because they conflict with our biases. Back to nocebo effect, if we denigrate say acupuncture for generations and then discover we were wrong, many people who could benefit will not because of stigma and the nocebo effect. It works both ways—with modern medicine and alternative or traditional cultural “medicine”. Somehow we have to balance the actual evidence with how we portray the evidence or current lack of evidence. We know so little about biology we can’t assume we know enough to count out alternatives without continuing to study them. And we have to decide if helping people is the goal or if profit is the goal. There has to be a balance there as well and in the US there is no balance. It’s all profit motive. And it seems a lot of folks are fine with that and the negative consequences.
Unfortunately nothing is always successful. If it were we would be immortal. And it seems after we figured out not to crap in our water supply, bathe, and preserve food we’ve kind of hit a wall. In the US life expectancy is decreasing although we spend more on “healthcare” than comparable countries—often twice as much. I guess not surprising when medical errors are the third leading cause of death and the first two leading causes of death are preventable at about 70% for #1 and around 50% for #2. Prevention is always the best practice.
Going to the cancer doctor today for my girlfriend.... I'm going to ask him his opinion of acupuncture and if he knows anyone that does it.
Why do you keep repeating me? I brought that to your attention when you said placebo had no relevance to the subject of homeopathy? No, most of the advice from the CDC etal. was not based on science. It was mostly directly conflicting with science. Some examples: 1) Masks were discouraged at the beginning of the pandemic and claimed to be mostly placebo in effect. 2) When masks were recommended, ineffective materials were recommended and we were told the materials for homemade masks were just as good as N95 type masks. 3) Social distancing of 6 ft. was recommended even though the science said it was completely inadequate. 4) Masks were never promoted for use where they would have had the most positive impacts. 5) Until the end of 2021, the CDC etal. discouraged and even actively withheld N95 masks from citizens even though there was an oversupply of certified masks and manufacturing companies were going bankrupt because they couldn’t sell them due to CDC controls on sales. 6) Approval for emergency use of monoclonal antibodies as passive vaccination for the immunocompromised was withheld for months even after it was clear the mRNA vaccines were not working for this demographic and antibodies had passed phase 3 trials with better efficacy results than mRNA vaccines and comparable safety data. 7). These same monoclonal antibodies were pulled by the FDA at the very beginning of omicron and people with Delta who could have benefitted were denied access the the known effective lifesaving treatment. The most effective lifestyles mitigations against Covid were NEVER disclosed by public health. Still haven’t been. All the above directly conflicted with known science when those actions were taken. Yes, we need to focus on prevention. And we can at the personal level if we choose to instead of following the incorrect advice of “professionals”. But first we must acknowledge they do not have our best interest at heat and can’t be trusted based on appeal to authority. We must go to the trouble of taking personal responsibility. Other countries don’t eliminate profit. Some curtail it more than others and that creates other problems. We need a balance here. Now the agencies we set up to create the balance are primarily funded by those who profit greatly from imbalance. LOL. Americans weren’t even informed about most of the free approaches to avoiding Covid. You can’t ignore something you don’t know about. Of course both tribes used Covid and Covid disinformation as political tools. Still are. You are incorrect. I provided peer reviewed evidence. You admitted to not reading it because the abstract conflicted with your preconceived biases. I find it disturbing we are more concerned about a hypothetical issue that has no evidence than 250,000 or more dying as a direct result of US healthcare. I have provided plenty of evidence you refuse to read. I keep asking you for evidence you are unable to provide. So it goes.
Let us know what you learn. Wishing best of luck for your GF. Cancer sucks. But I’ve seen a lot of people kick it’s ass. The only person I know personally that does acupuncture is a horse vet. Specializes in oral (floats teeth for us) and acupuncture. He’s a good dude.
Policies have to take into account the possible. Effective masks were not available for proper use, even to first responders and hospitals overloaded with COVID patients. There were other materials in short supply or not available as well. I don't know what you mean by #4, and I don't know the source of your #1. Again, there was significant concern for first responders. Those working with COVID patients in hospitals found it necessary due to supply to wear a single mask for days in a row, when the masks were supposed to be replaced with new patient contacts. So, when hospitals couldn't get masks, there were efforts to redirect supplies to those hospitals. People refused to wear masks, refused to avoid densely populated events, refused to do less travel, refused to modify working conditions to account for personal contact, refused to get vaccinated, etc. There are all in your category here. What would YOU have added to the list: Again, science is ONE contribution to policy. For example, the issue with homemade masks was one of whether they were better than no masks. The fact that better masks were known was not the issue. That doesn't describe the difference. Our full healthcare system is capitalism, with help from the government to try to get healthcare to those capitalism is uninterested in serving. The US per capita healthcare expense is HUGE compared to other countries that have single payer healthcare. This comes from the fact that our system is based on capitalism. Please cite. Are you talking about the fact that reducing travel would have helped? Are you pointing to the fact that the COVID in the USA came from Europe, where we refused to reduce travel and refused to do any kind of testing of those entering the USA? Are you talking about the refusal to say anything about Mardi Gras? Are you referring to spring break and the creative use of cellphone tracking to see where people in FL beach crowds returned to, noting the degree to which people did not reduce travel? The right wing made anti-mask a major partisan political movement. And, I'd point out that this is an area where Trump made himself VERY involved, controlling the message to the people from CDC, FDA, and other sources. In fact, he went so far as to send out papers on CDC letterhead that the CDC did not know about or agree with. OK, this is another major mistake. Concern about homeopathy is NOT conflicting with action being taken concerning accidents in hospitals. You are just wrong about that.
Let's be sure not to mix up allopathic medicine with federal policy on a national health emergency. Policy is political, and rightfully so. Science is one possible source of input.
Of course. I never advocate for the impossible. Only for very simple and affordable mitigations everyone can benefit from. Incorrect. After December 2020 there was no shortage of N95 masks for healthcare professionals or common citizens. I didn’t stutter. I’m referring to withholding N95 masks after there was an OVERSUPPLY of them. I clearly stated that. Please avoid fallacy. I’ve explained all this to you multiple times. In fact I provided YOU links to mask suppliers contemplating bankruptcy because they had an oversupply of masks in the spring of 2021. The one quote below is to YOU in February 2021 pointing out there was NO shortage of N95 masks then. Manufacturers were going broke because the CDC etal. wouldn’t let people buy available masks. The CDC recommended AGAINST N95 masks until September 2021. I helped people understand N95 masks were available in February of 2021. Hospitals refused to buy masks that were readily available for their employees. There was no shortage for healthcare workers or others after December 2020. This is just a well documented fact. Of course you don’t know what I mean by #4. It’s based on science and you didn’t get science from the CDC. The science was/is very clear wearing a good mask while sitting on your couch watching TV with your family would have prevented far more transmission than wearing masks in public. Never mind the clowns who recommended masks outdoors but not in the home. The recommendations on masking from the CDC conflicted with all known science at the time. I pointed all this out in real time as it was happening by providing the actual evidence. The CDC never had evidence to support their recommendations. Just appeal to authority fallacy as they made anti science recommendations. Source for #1. I’m referring to the CDC withholding N95 masks in 2021 after there was such a glut of masks manufacturers were idling production, laying off workers, and going bankrupt because the CDC wouldn’t let them sell masks online etc. and were recommending AGAINST their use. Why should they wear a mask when the supreme expert told them they were essentially worthless? When “experts” deny science there are negative consequences. Social distancing guidelines were not based on science either. Nor was any other masking advice concerning where to mask etc. I started my list in April of 2020. I created a thread of part of my list much later. http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?posts/1073045677/ I posted voluminously on mitigations from diet to sleeping behaviors that are shown to decrease infection rates and severe Covid. I was the first person to disclose obesity increases chance of infection on PF. I was ridiculed for presenting peer reviewed studies showing that was the case. The CDC and the medical community withheld N95 masks for months when they were readily available. That’s the problem. They intentionally killed people. Yeh. Just like everywhere else. We just suck at it. Also because our costs subsidize other countries. Especially pharmaceuticals. Single payer would help. Not going to happen though. Too much money involved. LOL. No. I’m talking about 90 minutes of moderate exercise after vaccination increasing the efficacy of vaccination especially in the aged. I’m talking about sleep amount and patterns affecting infection rates and severe case rates. Science stuff. Not political nonsense. Stuff that can protect you at the beach or at home or at the store. Stuff you don’t have to depend on others you can’t trust to provide. You can’t change Florida policy. Or what China or Europe do. But you can follow actual science instead of the garbage advice you got from public health. As I said, I only advocate for the possible. It’s true there are just as many science deniers on the right as the left. It’s also true Trump denied science about as much as Biden. That’s not news. Well, I provided peer reviewed evidence of 250,000 annual deaths from healthcare in and out of hospitals. Many deaths are from medications taken AS DIRECTED. It’s a serious problem. You complain endlessly about homeopathy but can provide no evidence your concerns are anything but unsubstantiated opinions. I provided peer reviewed evidence the FDA is not addressing the problem. You won’t read the peer reviewed evidence because you won’t read anything that doesn’t support your preconceived biases. I’m not wrong about anything. Everything I’ve posted is backed by evidence. You being unwilling to read the evidence is not evidence I’m incorrect. Your unsubstantiated opinions are not evidence either. Nor are your verifiably false claims such as your claim pharmaceutical companies don’t fund the FDA. You are discussing things you don’t understand. Things you know very little about because you only read things that support preconceived biases. Even peer reviewed research that conflicts with your biases you won’t consider. I’m not sure why you are here if evidence means nothing to you.
