Trump Cites Progress In Keeping Carrier Air Conditioning Plant In Indiana

Good poster re: leaders v politicians.......

 

Trump deserves no credit until carrier says they will stay.

 

yeah it is so cheap that your electricity costs 15 - 22 cents a KWh + 70 Cents per day while in the US the Price is 8 - 17 cents per KWh. Of course that maes sense when you build 2 electrical plants when one one is needed, one just for fun toy to show the neighbors and the other to provide dependable electricity. Keep your expensives toys here we will use something dependable


Funny part is Australia is a net energy exporter. Sounds to me as if the Government needs to use a little bit of that energy for their own citizens instead of exporting it to China and India where it is used to pollute like hell because the government could give a (*)(*)(*)(*) for ecology. So please Bower sit there in your country where 24% live in energy poverty while it making China and India rich. BTW we share the same atmosphere as China and India so is sending it to them to burn in dirty plants morally superior to adapting clean coal technology and using that energy for Australians?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing#Global_electricity_price_comparison

http://www.smh.com.au/business/ener...o-lowerincome-households-20160629-gpu8ve.html

sorry you will have to run down you rathole by yourself, we won't be joining you at the bottom

 

So what part of average income does that price represent? If the Australian price is only 1% of income whilst the US price is 5% of income then your price is dearer than ours.. Also there has to be factored in the subsidies for electricity

Most of my points and a lot more are in the wiki link you reference d plus you stated the low side of the price whereas Wiki was careful to point out that the price in the USA is highly variable

As for the SMH article that is just a normal "poor need more government assistance" article that has swap out lines= next week the same article will talk about pensioners not having enough money for public transport

Bottom line we ARE doing this, we are upgrading our infrastructure so we can remain competitive in the global market. It is not all smooth sailing but we know that down the line electricity will be cheaper and that means a better manufacturing base

 

so all that means it is ok to export your pollution to other countries instead of using all that coal you send to China and India to provide power in a cleaner coal plant than they use in China and India. Or do even give a crap about what they are doing to the atmosphere and their citizens with the pollution ? We have cheap energy in the USA and no one is walking around with gas masks on like they do in China and India with the coal you send them. So please don't get on a moral high horse with me

 

Income should never be taxed, consumption should be taxed. We do not want to put any roadblock in anyone's quest to increase his income.

 

Why would we as a nation of huge energy reserves be one of the the countries leading in alternative energy? How would that even make sense? It makes sense for nations who do not have enough energy to meet their needs to be is the lead. We can easily sit back 10 years learn from their mistakes and then proceed.

 

Our coal is black coal which is less polluting than chinese brown coal hut we are also exporting the even less polluting natural gas

No one wants to give up fossil fuel overnight but we need to explore alternatives Australia might yet be exporting energy from nenewables to Asia

It is a big market and if we can find the solutions then we beat you to all that lovely income!!!

 

Point is you are exporting that energy instead of using it in your own country while making your own energy twice as expensive as need be thereby choking your economy and punishing your own country while doing nothing to prevent damage to the atmosphere and perhaps causing even more damage

 

No one not even the IPCC said we have to do this overnight


No on= said that we have to give up all fossil fuel

But unless we make a start we will never get there .

 

Well, you didn't follow through on that. That example was not oriented to describe just our side of the trade equation.

Other nations feel the same way about US companies selling US manufactured goods inside their borders.

If Japan had given Toyota tax breaks it's highly unlikely that Toyota would have decided to move manufacturing back to Japan.

So, companies like Ford grow manufacturing in Mexico - exactly like Toyota decided to open manufacturing in the USA, like Microsoft opened production in the EU and opened other production related facilities in Australia. Etc.

Remember that the Ford move was for manufacturing vehicles that were NOT to be sold inside the US.

Boeing makes airplanes in the US, but uses parts from all over the world - which is clearly required for them as they sell many airplanes outside the US for every one sold in America. Tax breaks aren't going to cause Boeing to move manufacturing of airplane components back into America.

We can not analyze trade problems by looking ONLY at our side of the equation. When we see trade changes we want (like changes to how Toyota did business) we have to remember that other countries want the same thing.

 

China already leads the world in alternative energy equipment and technology exports and also leads in patents by far.

What is the reasoning behind ceding this technology segment to China when we know it is going to be important throughout the world?

In general, I think we need to identify some areas for us to lead. And, it isn't going to be the past markets that are already mature or where other nations have caught up with us. And, we aren't going to find jobs segments where automation is taking over - or in extraction which isn't a big employment opportunity.

 

I'm not sure what you are suggesting we should do.

Today, fossil fuel extracted in the US belongs to private corporations.

They sell it on the world market for as much as they can get for it, with corporations not having any reason to care about America.

So, how are you suggesting we change that?

 

why do you keep saying tax breaks won't do this tax breaks won't do that... I'm not arguing for tax breaks... I'm arguing for americans with incomes where they can afford the luxury of being picky when purchasing items, to pick american made items, nothing more nothing less... don't interject your thoughts or stereotypes of others onto me, I'm not here to defend or argue their points, I am arguing mine, being american, and buying american...

now if you want to dive into tax breaks as a secondary subject now... okay lets do that... if americans want to hard a true honest and hard discussion about taxes, lets tackle business taxes... what percentage of the federal budget do you think comes from "corporate taxes" today? if you're guessing more than 10% you're dead wrong... thats how little corporations make up of our federal budget, but if you look at how much they spend trying to comply with regulations that are tax based, you will see they spend almost an equal amount to avoid taxes, as they do to pay taxes... now the common man might think what a waste of money, they should just give up and give it to the government, but thats not the thought process of companies, they fight every penny until it costs more to fight it than pay it, which is the delicate balance we're sitting on now...

so what SHOULD we do in order to benefit from corporations? well first we have to decide what kind of nation we want to be, clearly low paying jobs are not what we want, so manufacturing is at the lower end of that rung, we would much prefer corporate jobs for americans, and I don't think anyone would argue against the typically higher paying jobs that comes along with that... so what does america have to do, to woo the corporations of the world to stop leaving us? get rid of that 10% of the budget they pay, which will double once you account for the costs they spend just to pay as little of that as possible... this means there will be a windfall of profits in america, this means they will have reasons to relocate companies here rather than move them over-sea for more favorable taxes on international income...

currently companies are looking to leave not just because america is relatively flat for growth, they're leaving because the major growth is all international, and america has some of the WORST tax codes for that type of environment... if a company continues to grow 10% or more anually international, but stalls in america, they are going to be losing their ass in the near future to their competition who is not essentially being double taxed on international profits... currently american companies pay taxes in whatever country they do business, then if they bring that money back to america, they get taxed again on it... thats no way to win at business in an international competition... this is why companies are leaving, because there are countless countries that will NOT tax their international profits, and the ones who do, tax them at far lower rates than america...

so if you want ot bring those corporate jobs back, if you want to retain the ones we do have, we must abolish this double taxation... we're a society that garners most of its federal taxes from income on individuals... so if we retain the high paying corporate jobs, it'll be a windfall for americans getting paid better wages, but also a windfall for the government with the current method of taxation... but if we keep trying to squeeze corporations who are growing internationally and stalling in america, we'll continue to see them leave for other countries who are now growing their middle and upper classes hand over fist, at the expense of americans who will no longer get those jobs...

so what america do you want... tax corporations until you're satisfied, or abolish the taxes, and reap the benefits of corporate jobs for americans...

sure someone might argue a balance in the middle, but do you want growth in american incomes, or do you want to sit and spin around in circles...

I know what I would pick to benefit americans, sad thing is, everyone wants to push political ideology over economic practicality...

P.S. and when I take that shot at politics, its on both sides of the fence, neither side is doing what needs to be done, they're doing whats politically powerful for them to gain or retain power... like I said in another message, thats the difference between leadership and politicians... all we have is politicians...

 

I swear you are a breath of fresh air.

 

Our president elect talks about tax breaks as a lever for bringing corporations back. He also seems to think trade deals can do that, while sometimes suggesting that includes trade restrictions or tariffs.

As we already went through, the Toyota, Boeing, Microsoft, Honda, Ford and other examples show that the reason companies produce product in other countries is not limited to tax. In fact, tax may not be the issue at all. In fact, it hits me as BS for people to demand that Ford build cars for Mexico in the US - we don't accept Toyota building cars for us in Japan. Why does anyone think that Mexico wouldn't share the same economic issues we face?

I already disputed your idea that we could use boycotts to make the changes we want. I simply don't believe that at all, as we are good capitalists that love Walmart, etc. Imports change our standard of living for the better.

There are lots of ways to push America forward. They tend to involve making us competitive. To do that, we need education (both vocational and 4 year academic with STEM, etc.). We need investment in R&D. etc. We are not going to win by trying to lure old style manufacturing back to the US by ending taxation. Other nations are already competitive with us - they caught up. Germany is exporting huge amounts of heavy equipment, China is exporting huge quantities of relatively high tech stuff. We, who are only 5% of the world, aren't going to make some huge step forward by dickering with taxes on old style manufacturing. And, even if they come back they are going to come back as automated as possible (to hire as few as possible) and workers will still face the problems of having had their unions smashed, leaving them with low pay, undependable retirement, low job security, etc., and no way to demand improvement.

 

so basically, you're projecting Trump upon me as if I somehow have to defend him, when clearly I am not supporting whatever notions you're thrusting upon me as if they are mine to defend... stop that, nobody likes people who do that, don't blame me for someone elses thoughts and your assumptions they are mine to defend... don't be a dick like that... I made MY case about what I believe, address that and don't leverage Trump as if its my reasoning or problem to defend his thoughts, they are not mine, and don't correlate mine with his, as they are clearly different as I explained...

nowhere once again, do I say boycott anything, what I say is people with means, people like me, who have incomes that allow choice, should choose to purchase american made products and services, because I can afford to be picky and put my morals and values before my wallet, I am afforded that luxury... and people like me need to start being american and buying american when possible... I'm putting my money where my mouth is, you seem to throw your hands up in the air, twirl around in your pink ballerina outfit, and say all it lost we must give up nothing to do here... stop being that person as well, there is a LOT every single american, even the poor ones can do, with their purchases... stop acting hopeless...

so no, you didn't "dispute my ideas", all you did was run away with your arms up in the air screaming we can't do it, its impossible, we can't make choices of our own free will, we're screwed and destined to buy foreign made goods because we can't possibly make choices as free people to buy or demand american made goods... if you want a high tech corporate world, I support that as well, but you are going to run into the EXACT same issues you just screamed a moment ago were impossible for americans to do because labor here is too expensive... just because you change the labor costs from a manufacturing line to an engineering line with highly educated people does not magically change the cost of labor still being the exact same problem it was a moment ago in your other attack on manufacturing... you're still using expensive labor, just because you changed the type of manufacturing doesn't change the relative difference in labor expenses... all you did was change the industry in which the labor was applied...

this tells me you understand nothing about economics because you just defeated your own new argument about high tech jobs with a high skilled work force and somehow that would be more competitive than a low skill labor force... do you NOT think the high tech labor force in China and other countries is far LESS than in america??? have you ever taken a trip to India my friend, they have some of the LOWEST paid technically qualified skilled people, and they are destroying us because labor costs there are insanely cheap compared to america, for the SAME skill level... so please stop trying to tell me all will be solved by simply changing the industries we compete in, and training our workforce to a higher skill level, we'll still have the same problem you just got done a moment ago saying was a huge issue, labor costs... our labor costs will STILL be higher...

this is why we need to get to the root of the economic issue and find a reason why companies are leaving, and why they would want to stay, and better yet how can we convince them to move to america... and thats simple, I already explained it... change our tax code to stop double dipping on foreign profits, stop corporate taxes all together... because of our tax system, being so heavily reliant on income taxes, and so little on corporate taxes, all we're doing is increasing the cost of business and getting little in return for it because we've made it so complex and costly to do business...

do you NOT understand what it means when I said america is stalled as an economy, and the growth is in foreign countries??? this means companies will no longer benefit from a robust american economy so there is little tax incentive to stay in america, and why they leave for other countries to capitalize on foreign growth, while american growth and taxes will still be paid the EXACT same rate in another country as they are in this country, except all that growth they have around the world, will now be a huge tax savings since they won't get double taxed by the american tax code... why else do you think Apple as the prime example is sitting on over $200 BILLION dollars in CASH over-seas right now... and why do you think they are building new plants in other countries, and expanding staff in existing sites around the world, while moderating or shrinking the american workforce... because the growth is all over-seas, and they would be silly to bring the money back to america to pay taxes on it a second time...

think of all the drug companies that left... they left because the growth is not in america, thats saturated unless they raise prices, now some do that but most don't want to (*)(*)(*)(*) off congress and the american people who are their cash cow, so the only way they create growth and savings is to leave for other countries who they have not penetrated those markets fully, and when they do all that growth will be far less costly in taxes than if they remained in america... why else do you think company after company after company buys a foreign competitor and then moves to their country... its not because we lack skilled people, its not because we lack sales, its because we lack GROWTH... and if you ever ran a business, you would know just how important growth is to your country, and how stupid it would be to remain someplace you're not growing, and paying double the taxes on any new growth you get from foreign countries... you would be foolish to yourself, and your stockholders if you have any, to remain in america and pay TWICE on taxes... one in the country you earned the profit, then a second time when you bring that profit back to america... why on earth would you pay taxes twice and pay all the costs associated with working our tax code today? you'd be foolish in this stalled economy to remain in america, we're not growing like we did in decades past, because our population growth is insignificant, there isn't that much new business to be had in america... sure you can grow 2% 4% but if you can grow 10% someplace else and save half the tax money, why wouldn't you...

P.S. let me try to dumb this down for you with a little visual math...

in america lets say you add $10,000,000 in new profits this year... you pay your lets say 20% after "loopholes" are factored in... you made $8,000,000 in profits after those taxes... but lets say in China you add $10,000,000 in new profits this year... you pay your lets say 20% after paying off chinese officials... you made $8,000,000 in profits after those payoffs... so it sounds equal right, you did well in america and china... but not so fast, once you bring that money back to america, you have to pay american taxes, in addition to the chinese taxes you just paid... so now that $8,000,000 becomes $6,400,000 in profit... you begin to see the problem yet? now your competition thats based in china, and selling in america lets say made the same $10,000,000 in each country as you did... but they don't get double dipped by china, china says all foreign profits are not taxed again... so now they made $8,000,000 in china, and $8,000,000 in america... you made $8,000,000 in america and $6,400,000 in china... which company do you think is going to win out this race???

do you begin to understand how this applies to such small numbers, now work that out to billions, and you begin to see why nobody brings profits back to america, because they would be stupid to... and you begin to see why companies are racing to Ireland and other countries... and Irelands middle class is booming with well paying corporate jobs, you know, the corporate jobs we SHOULD be keeping here to tax with our income tax based system... but we're not because people like you just want to tell me we need better education and higher skilled technical jobs to compete, but you fail to understand we're still as the SAME labor cost disadvantage, so if we want to effectively create change and bring corporate jobs to america we need to address the corporate taxes that are encouraging the very jobs we want in america, to leave america...

all you did was substitute the industry, you did nothing to change the economics of the situation... all you did was change the labor industry, you didn't change anything about the labor costs... whereas I changed the economic structure that encouraged movement to america, because I changed the playing field and made it unfair to companies in other countries, so they are incentivized to move here as a result to capitalize on savings in the american market, and not be punished for success in the international market...

I think america needs to be a corporate job world, corporate headquarters here for all the major companies... instead we're losing it because we're too smug to swallow our pride and realize our tax code is no longer competitive with the rest of the world because we think nobody will bother leaving us... newsflash... we're not just losing the headquarters, we're losing all those white collar upper middle class jobs that go with it... and thats the bread and butter of the american tax code system, to tax those high paying corporate jobs... without them it won't matter what we make in america, low skill, high skill, or anything in between... the sooner you realize changing the labor industry doesn't change the facts, the better off we are... so please don't ever again make an argument changing from a low skill job to a high skill job will somehow make america more competitive, it won't, all you did was attempt to compete with places like China and India who had far LESS cost for that same skilled labor...

 

Wow - that's a lot of text!

I know you didn't use the B word, but when you choose not to buy a product or products for political reasons that is a boycott. It is purely a political movement, designed to counter capitalist impulses. And, I just don't know of any case where a movement like that had any success at all. Boycotts have been tried many times. I just do not believe that you can round up enough reasonably well off people who are interested in not buying stuff because of where it is made and are willing to put up with higher expense or lower quality to support that.

I've hired people directly out of the best universities in India. I know what they can do. And, yes, the USA has a major challenge facing us, because we are 5%, yet we want to have the highest standard of living in the world.

There is segmentation here in the US, too. High Tech corporations open up in Silicon Valley, in Boston, in research triangle of North Carolina, because there is a confluence of resources needed by high tech corporations in those areas. They aren't going to open up in the Dakotas, even if the wages were lower there. So, yes, we can compete with India, because we built Silicon Valley and the rest, we have the government patent protections that are enforced, we have the transportation system that brings products to market, we have security and a court system that we can trust, we have access to markets that India doesn't have (at least right now). We have more top notch universities (even though they have at least a couple in the top tier of the world).

So, wages are not the only issue. We compete with a total package. And, we BETTER damn well keep that whole package well fueled and complete.

And, once again your "because we're too smug to swallow our pride" thing entirely misses why Toyota does manufacturing here - which is the same reason we do manufacturing in other countries. It's why Ford is moving manufacturing to Mexico.


Maybe we can agree on the part where we do need a lot more 4 year college level of education if we plan on competing in a world where that is becoming a competitive requirement.


Let's go back to:
http://www2.itif.org/2012-fifty-ways-competitiveness-woes-behind.pdf

 

Of course your simplistic notions forget that U.S manufacturers want to be competitive with companies when they sell products over seas. They'll never be able to do that at the rate American workers expect to be paid. We live in a global market and this will never change. We need to be competitive anywhere and everywhere to keep growing our economy. I can't believe people are buying into orange-****'s ridiculous concept of economics.

 

Yep, American's can get by with jobs paying 0.15 cents an hour. Why do they want to make so much money? Only CEOs should get all of the money. The workers don't need money. Paying workers fifteen cents an hour is being extravagant. That's $1.20 a day. Anymore and they will be stealing money out of the CEOs' bank vaults.

 

The only thing that needs changing is making it more profitable to manufacture in the USA. A 20% reduction in the taxing of corporate profits is a good start. Reducing cost of doing business by eliminating and trimming of over regulation is another. It is pretyy simple and not hard for anyone with 2 brain cells to grasp, corporations go where it is most profitable to do business. Over taxing and over regulating just drives them off. Keeping energy costs low and having a good reliable grid is a necessary for a manufacturing plant. Here in SC we are seeing a manufacturing boom of good paying jobs because Nikki Haley and Mark Sanford made them some good tax deals. Everyone is seeing the fallout of those actions. The local technical college is build a new Aerospace Unit to help train workers for the Boeing factory, the home builders are building more housing, restaurants, grocery stores etc are being built. Everyone benefits when good paying jobs are created. Liberals just can't seem to grasp what is to me a simple concept

 

Even made in America in reality means assembled in America from foreign parts.

 

Most home AC's and refrigerators of all brands use Copeland compressors which are made in USA, evaporator and condenser coils which are a mixed bag of US and overseas, internal electronics and controls are mostly Chinese and Japanese

 

And with some of these things. It's not a matter of "make a new law", it's prioritizing our Federal Budget. The whole reason the infrastructure thing is long overdue(and education, and all of these other things) is that they get a pittance of the US Fed budget by percentage. And if you can imagine, that spending is supposed to be for all 50 States, so it's even less than that for some others.

It's time for the US to be a domestic producer once again, and when we invest at home we'll be a much greater political force abroad.

 

After I made my post I went out and looked up Tecumseh compressors, they aren't as common as once they were but they can be either US, Canadian or Mexican as near as I can tell. But the lions share are US made also.

The old saw that US labor is too high is just BS. We have a lot of overseas companies assembling and producing here in the south. Wages in these plants are in the mid 20's on average. We can manufacture durable goods that match overseas goods in price and do it without destroying our ecology

Electronic manufacturing will probably be dominated by China. That is a very dirty industry and China with it's non existent environmental standards will continue to churn out raw components cheaper than we can. trust me we don't want to become China as far as it's ecology goes, their manufacturing cities are chemical wastelands