Trump says time for U.S. to recognize Israeli sovereignty over Golan

Wow - long post but good info. I wasn't aware that things have taken a turn in Israel - that more now support the neocons. This may be due to the more stronghand tactics - clamping down on freedom of the press and so on - that was quite chilling.

Interesting comment on the upsurge of anti-semitism in Europe. I have heard a little on this but just bits and pieces. Joining the EU has not been very good for some Eastern Europeans. It allowed the multinationals to come in and basically rape and pillage. In Romania for example you used to have a brewery in every town - and the jobs that went with it - the big beer brands came in and bought up everything - closed them - and now manufactures in one big plant or imports.

I get that disgruntled people rightly wanting to pin the blame on the elite international financiers - what I don't get is that when they find out that some of that club happen to be Jews - that they go out and target all Jews - almost none of which have anything to do with the "Rothschilds" or the "Morgans". Its crazy... that would be like going after all Irish people because there was some rich Irishman in the club (which their likely is)

Speaking of club "R" - that consortium and a few others pretty much run the US.

 

European antisemitism exists for almost two millennia. Neither Bibi, nor Soros, are that old.

Sentiments of the people don't feed hungry children. Industry, commerce, and other activities related to "interests of certain individuals" are the source of wealth, not ideals.

Breaking news: society can't exist without individuals, and can't prosper if individuals don't prosper. Fulfillment of Individual interests is the force that pulls the society forward.

 

Thank you for reminding me of their sufferings under neoliberalism. That makes absolute sense and was what the one who was saying the sick things about Jews was also going on about. That being said the Jew they hate and use as the image of the hateful Jew who will destroy them is Soros and he is not a supporter of neo liberalism which just goes to show that you must have discrimination in your reading!

This was East Europe I was speaking of. They are the ones most obviously moving towards fascism and they along with Poland seem to be the ones who have got started with genuine antisemitism, though both of them are the one's Israel likes most - though she had a little tiff about things with Poland recently.

I don't know about antisemitism in Western Europe. I would say though that contrary to Hungary it is still a massive taboo. I can say a little about it in the UK. Here antisemitism is criticism of Israel and/or concern for Palestinian rights. That is it 100%! Labour is now being accused of being Institutionally antisemetic but records show antisemitism is very small in the Labour Party. It is claimed antisemitism has absolutely soared in the Labour Party since Corbyn became Leader but statistics show it has gone down. Whether Jews think the Labour Party is antisemetic depends 100% on their position on Israel (or I guess if they believe the propaganda without checking). It is very much an Omar racket on a larger scale. Corbyn has not dealt with it well, no doubt giving those in the US the confidence to think they could pull the same on her....and just to finish that off there is some genuine growing antisemitism in the UK and the vast majority of that comes from the Far Right. They are never mentioned. As far as antisemitism is concerned they are ignored. Antisemitism now is criticism of Israel or concern for the rights of Palestinians.

I will also add that obviously many Jews will believe wrongly they are in danger from Labour due to this on going media assassination attempt. The London School of Economics did research on this and their conclusion was that the amount of lies the press were printing about Corbyn, the Leader of the opposition was way beyond what could be excused by free speech and amounted to an attack on our democracy.

 

Oh, so that's why the Perfidious Albion refused to help both its allies - US and Jordan - back in 1970 during Black September.

One consequence of this refusal is the strong, indestructible alliance between the US and Israel today.

https://nypost.com/2001/01/03/jordan-asked-israeli-help-vs-syria-troops/

Relevant documents, taken from the British National Archives:
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/UK/situationinme79_80.pdf

Please post a list of all American Jews not allowed into Israel, source included.

Any attempt to claim complete knowledge of what majority of Jews think or want is hilarious. More so when you pretend to know what American or Israeli Jews think.

Unlike BDS supporters, governments rarely allow themselves to shun relationships with countries whose governments are not exactly shining role models of democracy and human rights. Russia, Saudi Arabia, China, and Iran, spring to mind.

Communication is the best way to exchange ideas and influence people, you know. Refusing to communicate won't make the Hungarian government less racist and xenophobic. Normalization, on the other hand, might help reducing racism and xenophobia, simply by showing each side that the other side is not the monster under the bed.

Reality is not the hard left's best friend.

Peace will come when there will be some heroic people with massive humanity on the other side as well.

You always talk about international law, but never tell us what this precious international law says. As far as I know, there's no universal international law, but if you think otherwise, please quote this law.

There are plenty of free papers in Israel - two in print, others online. Even newspapers that offer premium content have quite a lot of free articles as well.

What makes Finkelstein an expert in average Israelis' wishes and desires, I wonder? How is "average Israeli" defined, anyway?

 

Please keep in mind that info coming from a supporter of an organization whose goal is the destruction of Israel might be more than a tad biased.

Where have you heard about Romanian local breweries being put out of business? It's actually the other way round. Romanians traditionally make tzuica, not beer, at home. Local beer breweries are a new phenomenon in Romania, and there are quite a lot.
https://theculturetrip.com/europe/romania/articles/13-craft-beers-you-must-try-in-romania/

Romanians drink so much beer, the multinationals can't possibly satisfy all the demand.

 

I have seen this over in the UK - Political correctness on steroids. Where folks get labeled "anti Semite" for something that has nothing to do with anti Semitism - bringing up valid criticism of the IDF or similar.

I also notice this with respect to Islam - that the UK now has some limited recognition of Sharia. This blows my mind how this can happen.

Sharia - by definition - is forcing ones religious belief on another through physical violence (Law). Western democracy was founded on the principle of respect for individual liberty / the golden rule - do unto others as you would have them do to you = If you don't want someone else forcing their strange religious beliefs on you - then - do not do the same to others.

Why then would we cater to a group that has "We hate individual liberty and want to force our religious beliefs on others through Law (Physical Violence) stamped on their foreheads ?

How is this not an anathema to the principles we claim to believe in. These people come here for our freedoms (in many cases escaping persecution - others using religious or other nonsense justification for physical violence) but then want to restrict freedom.

How is this not hypocrisy ?

Yet - if one stands up and calls out this evil for what it is - one is labeled "Islamophobic". I don't give a sht what the religion, creed, or color of the person is - If they want to force their religious or personal beliefs on me through violence (in a way that messes with individual liberty) this person is evil.

 

You have no clue what you are talking about. Moonshine has nothing to do with the topic - and I had more of this horrible beverage - made by Romanians - than you can imagine - including stuff that was made in my garage by my wife's Romanian father who lives with us.

 

not interested. At that time I knew nothing about Israel apart from what I was brought up to think and that was to be on their side regardless of what they did though what they did I had no idea of as I had no interest in politics. Find someone else to discuss your hated of the UK. I have much more interesting things to look into.

However about the reason for the US being prepared to destroy the rest of the world if necessary for Israel..well that would take some strong conviction. A strong conviction like the strongest there is, religion. - and a warped version of that as well, pretty much as warped a version of Christianity as Isis is to Islam.

Oh this is your usual asking for lists you know are not there.

Reason

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...jewish-and-banned-from-israel-for-my-activism

Now as to the people who Israel is boycotting

Israel’s BDS blacklist is straight out of apartheid. The UK can’t condone it

You will of course be aware the woman who runs Jewish voice for peace was denied admission

I think it was towards the end of last year Haaretz had several article on American Jews being detained and interrogated about their views. One was of an American male activist, or possibly he was an artist, the fact is he was well known.

It would be if it came from myself. Jews for Justice for Palestinians have been saying that about American Jews for a few years now and strongly so take it out with them..

I have no idea where your imagination is because this is meaningless. However I do notice that Israel is very close with Saudi Arabia, that Russia has been extremely giving to you due to the number of ex Russians you have, that China is apparently in reality the country with the most citizens who support Israel and that of course is because like yourself she has taken over other people's land both Tibet and the Uyghers. Like yourselves she is replacing the indigenous people so I know you have a lot in common. Now I am unsure what you have Iran in here for as my information tells me you want to destroy it.

Israel likes Hungary because like itself it is moving towards fascism. That is what Israel has in common with both Hungary and Poland. Israel has no care about the antisemitism in these places. Even when Trump was up to his antisemitism after Charlottesville. your papers were given order to stay quiet about it as there are other things more important. Yep! There certainly are other things more important to Israel than antisemitism. There is making friends with other fascist countries regardless of whether they are antisemetic or not. There is encouraging hatred of Muslims, the way to the far right in Western Europe and to some extent in the US. There is getting the 4,000,000 Jews Israel believes are lurking in Europe away from Europe and into Israel but most of all Israel wants to have control over Greater Israel just like the pioneers did and to get rid of the people whose land it has been for centuries one way or another - I would guess with the way Israel has gone and the support it is receiving from an extreme right US with genocide if that is what it takes. My opinion. Israel is a disgrace to those who suffered and died in WW2 under fascism and I understand why she is a great disappointment to many Jews.

The one I am referring to is Adelson's free pro Netanyahu paper, Israel Hayom. I have read it is the most widely read paper in Israel and its whole point is to be an opinion maker. This is not where I heard about it before but doing a search online this came up. This is 2014

https://www.timesofisrael.com/is-adelson-imperiling-israeli-media/

He has more knowledge than most. However what he said was obvious. If Israel keeps moving to the right further and further to the right and people keep voting that back in, it is because they want more of it. The other question however is why. I said there was a massive amount of propaganda that they have to deal with. Giftedone suggested the issue was the news they have to listen to which is certainly a big part of it. Last time I looked Israel only had a partially free press. To work for justice for the Palestinians in Israel has a high cost. That is why I believe those who do not give up on their conscience but stay true to it are heroic.

 

Aren't these kinds of recognitions done by the Senate? He signed a piece of paper today, so I guess it is official.

 

Just watched the sign on TV.
Bravo !!!
Historical day

 

Why is it historic? Does it change something?

Sure looks like it is more about Trump trying to help Bibi win the elections in two weeks than anything else. Israel has controlled the area for decades.

 

So, it's official - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...an-heights-as-israeli-territory-idUSKCN1R61S6

Now what?

 

Nothing.

I was also wondering what it would change, and I can't think of anything.

 

This is not about hatred of UK, I don't hate UK, it's about your belief that UK obediently follows Washington. Not quite.

So far, I'm not convinced that the US is being prepared to destroy the rest of the world for Israel. As an atheist, I couldn't care less about Zionist Christians God's plans for the end of the world. As long as this plan is left to God to carry out, I'll keep on not caring.

I remind you what you wrote:

In fact, Israel has started banning active participants in BDS, not Jews. If some of those active participants are Jews, they'll probably be banned as well, but they won't be banned because they're Jews with different opinions. They'll be banned because they actively support an organization whose goal is the destruction of Israel.

I wasn't talking about Israel, many western democracies have at least diplomatic and commercial ties with the countries I mentioned.

That's so ridiculous, I won't bother with the rest.

 

At least we can agree on one thing - this is indeed an horrible beverage.

Don't challenge me on Romania. You'll never see the end of it

 

Hah ... I did challenge you on Romania - and at least on this topic was more than your match. Listing off a few Craft beer companies - 13 actually supports my argument in that there used to be a brewery in every other town = many hundreds if not thousands.

Then there is the problem in the US where the multinationals now own most of the so called "craft beer" companies.

It is not just that my wife and her Father that are from Romania - it is the whole community of Romanian friends that we have - and socialize with on a Regular basis - all with Romanian TV in their homes and all who are very political - and they have very little good to say about joining the EU - at least not with respect to the topic.

 

Wow!!!!!

I am seriously impressed!!!!!

I think that this sets the stage for something king of huge.

http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/should-sorek-2-be-in-australia-or-california.530861/



Megascale Desalination
The world’s largest and cheapest reverse-osmosis desalination plant is up and running in Israel.

 

Who said the UK obediently followed Washington. Did I not say that Thatcher got hell for allowing the US to use our web space for its bombing of Libya and killing of Gadaffis adopted daughter. You interpret things through your imagination and create something that was not said.

Well it has destroyed the ME. Of course Iran is still to come. Who was that for? Clean break comes to mind.

I would expect you to do no less. After all have they not been building the settlements so that you can have Greater Israel. There is a lot which the Israel Right and the Christian Zionists can agree on and some time ago when this was being discussed I noted an American Jew being questioned about whether it did not cause him concern that their end game is the death of most Jews and the rest to convert to their brand of twisted Christianity. He said no, they would sort that out. I would say however that religious extremism is probably the most dangerous extremism there is....and that is why there has been no possibility of a resolution in the ME. Hell when I got interested in it at first around the 80's, Religion was a minor part of things, in fact not mentioned except for the various factions killing each other - for instance the Christian Phalange massacring Palestinians in Lebanon while Sharon guarded them. Islam was really a bit late in the scene. Of course Israeli Jews in the main were not religious, the one people who began it on a religious level were the American Christian Right. They were the people who got their knickers in a twist when people started talking about two states. Their god would not allow it. They managed to get their Congress to bring in a law saying they would move their Embassy to Jerusalem Israel's undivided capital, 7 or ten days before the assassination of Rabin, letting anyone who was listening know they were not going to support any two state solution. Netanyhu has been working with them from around then and you should remember that their interest is not for Jews, their interest is not really for Israel, their interest is only in getting the situation as they see it in their version of the bible. If Armageddon demands Nuclear war so be it as far as they are concerned. But it is something which has destroyed all the hopes after WW2 of building a humane world and brought us back to very much the sort of society we were then. The West is hinging on fascism. It will take great care to manage to avoid that. People definitely forgot.

I remind you what you wrote:

You are unaware of the extent of engagement Jews have with BDS? I think that is unlikely

They will. That is exactly what it is.

Nonsense. BDS is essential as it is the only way to get Israel to make a move for a workable future, for a future which is not forever entrenched in Israel making her borders further and further for security, fighting this country, then that. Israel is too well armed and supported by the World Power to believe she has anything to gain from acting in a just and humane way. There will be no destruction of Israel but that is what is going to produce justice there and it seems it is the only thing. Of course being non violent is also a plus. years ago the EU were advised by the Palestine/Israeli Journal that unless Israel understood that if she did not give the Palestinians a viable congruous state she would end up saying good bye to her Jewish state. BDS is only looking for justice. It is up to Israel when she decides to make that so.

You might be interested in this video on Israel's work in the US to destroy BDS. It was one of their series of 4 which the US has managed to get Al Jazeera because of its countries vulnerability.

https://electronicintifada.net/content/watch-final-episodes-al-jazeera-film-us-israel-lobby/25896

The other ones are interesting as well.

What was your point in bringing them in then?

That, which is 'Even when Trump was up to his antisemitism after Charlottesville. your papers were given order to stay quiet about it as there are other things more important.' is completely true. I suggest you look into it if you do not know that because I most certainly do and threr is nothing short in my memory of it. What is your problem that in everything I said that was the thing you could not stand. Is it possibly because knowing that it is somewhat harder to deny that Israel is hobnobbing with the East European countries which are not only most near fascism but also simmering antisemitism. I know Hungary's Jews protested I am not sure about Polands...and by the way it is of course not just them. Once you decide to bring in hatred of any ethnic group, in this case Muslims, it is going to spread. That was obvious from the beginning as it is a way of thinking. I have been watching in the past few days documentaries on the growth of the far right in Austria, Germany and France. This is mainly about Generation Identity or the Indentitarian movement which rose in France. On one level it just seems like the usual thuggish gangs with a new identity - certainly the French ones did, they absolutely loved knocking people out..but now they see this as a political opportunity and have something to focus it on which is returning all immigrants to where they came from, trying to build up the idea that there could be a civil war as a poster here is always going on about...but very thinly underneath the surface was genuine Nazi antisemitism and I mean that certainly in rhetoric, Hail seig, I think it was and Hitler and all that stuff. Seriously concerning, not just the antisemitism, the hatred of Muslims and blacks as well. In the video one of them punched and punched a Muslim woman around the head. It is also happening in Germany and Austria and the thing is this all goes with what is going on in Israel. It has been an engineered hatred coming from the US provided by supporters of Israel. Well the fuse is lit.

 

I'm Romanian. I speak, read, and write the language perfectly. With family and friends in Romania, and years on a popular Romanian forum. I watch Romanian TV almost daily, both entertainment and news (on the internet, of course).

Many of those Romanians who routinely whine about the EU and multinationals are doing the whining from their comfortable offices and homes in Germany, UK, or Italy. Romanians won big from membership in the EU. But the old ultra-nationalist mentality that spawned the Iron Guard is still very much alive. Romania is a young country (less than two hundred years since the separate Romanian territories united under a single ruler), democracy is still very fragile there. There are those who don't grasp the benefits of foreign investments in Romania, call it theft of resources. Well, look at China - the perfect example why multinationals and foreign investments are not the root of all evil.

Back to the beer. Small businesses are often crushed by bigger competitors, that's not specific to Romania and multinationals - or beer breweries. There were, according to one Romanian newspaper, 125 breweries in Romania in 1994, which is not much for Romanians' appetite. There are still some 20 today, with additional microbreweries flourishing. There's also the not so negligible matter of quality and European standards, not so easy to uphold for small businesses. Blaming everything on evil multinationals creeping in to steal Romania's resources might be satisfying for the ego of the ultra-nationalists, but it's not the best way to deal with the realities of a still-in-diapers free market. Romanians are learning the hard way the benefits and downsides of competition and capitalism.

 

You also said something about US and the Vietnam war, implying that UK didn't participate only because the US didn't ask. That in response to one comment about US and UK being joined at the hip, or something like that.

The ME was in a mess since always, there were wars, tribal, and sectarian conflicts throughout its history, including when most of it was Ottoman. Well, I guess Israel is a gift that keeps giving for certain people, as is the US, otherwise they'd have to look at themselves and search for the real source of their troubles within.

According to your precious know-all Finkelstein, BDS' goal is the complete destruction of the Jewish state.



This is a part of a longer interview, I'll post it if you ask.

I don't have time to see the whole video now, but from what I saw I can't tell one way or the other. Scraps of conversations taken out of context are hardly proof of anything. Maybe I'll contact Amanda Botfeld for an explanation. Anyway, al Jazeera being the mouthpiece of Qatar, sponsor and supporter of Hamas, I wouldn't trust them on anything related to Jews and Israel.

No country in the world can afford itself to have relationships only with those countries whose governments uphold the same values. That in response to your criticism of Bibi's rapprochement to Hungary and Poland. I'm not happy about it either, but I'm aware this kind of relationships are unavoidable.

I live in Israel. I don't have to look into anything, I'm living through it. The allegations about orders being given to newspapers are simply ridiculous. More so in the age of unlimited access to the world wide web (prices here are relatively low, too, with monthly fees regardless of the bandwidth used).

Yes, I see the European trend toward the far right, it worries me too. Corbyn worries me no less, though....

 

Thank you for at least partially agreeing with my point. There is no doubt that there are good things - and bad things - that come from joining the EU.

That multinationals also engage in predatory practices in other nations - is 1) not a mark in favor of this practice and 2) does not justify this happening in Romania. I think that this is the core of our disagreement. You seem to favor - or at least agree with - such practices. Me - not so much.

 

It's not a matter of agreeing with predatory practices. It's a matter of acknowledging reality and dealing with it the best we can.

There's this saying about life giving lemons and lemonade (I'd rather squeeze the lemons in my enemies' eyes, but lemonade is fine too ). There's much lemonade to be made of foreign investments, predatory practices notwithstanding.

 

While that is somewhat of a separate question - kind of moving the goalposts really - I do agree with your general premise. In fact when I was a young - my best friend had the last name "Lemons" . When we moved to a different town - quite far away - he gave me (well his parents did ) that said "When life gives you Lemons -- Make Lemonade Heh heh.

I agree that if one can find a company to invest in that has a competitive advantage - regardless of how that advantage was arrived at - this is a prudent investment.

One of the arguments we often hear - a very stupid argument that the MSM seems to love - on both sides of the fence - is the argument that if someone cares for the poor- or some other high minded platitude -one should sell everything and give it to the poor.

Kind of like when Buffet speaks out about the fact that his Secretary pays more as a percentage of her income than he does - yet Buffet continues to take advantage of these tax breaks.

This is a stupid argument on steroids. So then .. I can care about the effects of predatory practices - yet take advantage of these practices indirectly - at the same time .. and this is neither hypocrisy nor a contradiction.