Was the January 6 riot/insurrection defensible?

Passionate argument, but how many "apologists for the unprecedented attack" are there? And how many of those who were arrested have expressed extreme remorse? You sound like we are still in the grip of an insurrection at this moment. I'd say it was relatively toothless as insurrections go. RELATIVELY.

It seems that if anyone dares to say the threat was either overblown, or not exactly what Trump had in mind, or comparatively less damaging and deadly than leftist attacks in the political and commercial establishment, then they become MAGA extremists. Many of those who entered the Capitol strolled in and strolled right back out, with zero effect except to provide photo ops for the sensationalist media.

 

Had VP Pence been caught by these "toothless" insurrectionists I wonder how you'd make the above argument to his surviving family.

 

In just about any other country in the world even those just supporting Trump would face severe penalties. The USA can still learn from other polities, it seems

 

I'm not convinced that "they" (how many were bent on actual violence against Pence personally?) would have done very much, except yell.

And if one or two of them had gone too far, as did Oswald, Fromm, or Hinckley -- and it happens -- I would have said that each man is responsible for his own actions and should be tried individually and accordingly.

 

Agreed. That applies to treason too.

 

The argument can be made, though weakly, that Trump committed "treason" in a very generic sense.

But in the criminal sense, he is utterly not guilty.

§2381. Treason
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

He would never even be indicted for that, unless the grand jury were composed entirely of Democratic operatives, and even then I wonder.... Come on, levies war??

 

Oh Rly?




Capitol Hill Occupied Protest
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Capitol Hill Occupied Protest (CHOP)
Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone














A quick Google suggests otherwise.

 

You seem hellbent upon minimizing the significance of the unprecedented, violent, politically-partisan attack on Congress to prevent the will of the People being certified, the essential fulfillment of democracy.

Are there still election loser deniers out there who would again attempt to overthrow a democratic election they don't like?

Even after hundreds were identified, apprehended, and prosecuted, the vigilance of patriots is essential.

 

You missed pics of folks with dunce caps and banners proclaiming some sort of partisan, political affiliation.

Is there random violence other than losers' attempts to overthrow elections?

Obviously.

 

In many other countries in the world, it is indeed routine for political oppositions to face severe penalties.

Ukraine, Russia. North Korea, Iran, China, Nazi Germany being the first examples that spring to mind.

We won't be modelling our country on them however. Good luck with it in yours.

 

I'm sorry, protesting an election result is worse than declaring an independent state without any election at all?

And yes, BLM rioters randomly killed 28 people.
Antifa are famous for their random violence.
Not to mention arson. Burning down courthouses, extorting money from local businesses. Looting. Attacking the police and random old people.
Vandalism and destruction of public property.
The norm.

What's not partisan about Antifa and BLM exactly?
Lot's of Republicans in Antifa and BLM are there? No?
Oh.

Probably not important then. Carry on.

 

You seem hell bent on exaggerating it.

Which serves a political agenda, of course.

 

I was thinking more of Britain, France and present-day Germany. You know, countries where the peaceful transfer of power is held sacred.

You seem more enamored of Germany from 1933-45, where peaceful transfers are only seen as useful if you win.

 

OK Insurrection. Tomatoe, Tomahto. Still nets you the big D anywhere else.
Trump should and would be in jail or worse in the entirety of the Western world. He and his bigot lickspittles should be in Leavenworth as fawning toadies if nothing else.

 

In jail or worse? Like the Death penalty? Uh, no.

There is some serious scholarship out there arguing for a conviction for insurrection. By egg heads.

In a prosecution of Trump for insurrection, the government would be entitled to a jury instruction like this one:

Ordinarily, to commit an offense, a defendant must commit a conscious and voluntary act, with the required state of mind. … However, a failure to act or an omission can be the basis for criminal responsibility if the government proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant had a legal duty to act, but failed or omitted to perform that legal duty with the required mental state.

This instruction is drawn from the Model Criminal Jury Instructions for the Third Circuit on that court’s website. They add this comment to an instruction concerning accomplice liability:

A defendant may … be responsible as an accomplice (aider and abettor) based on his or her failure to act despite having a legal duty to act.

https://www.justsecurity.org/82696/trump-and-the-insurrection-act-the-true-legal-framework/#:~:text=any rebellion or insurrection against,office under the United States.

Trump had a moral duty to do more, but not a legal duty that anyone has showed me.

 

There are nuts in every country, and the esteem for peaceful transfer is as high here as it is in Europe.

 

When people are chanting that they should hang their victims and building gallows to do so I take them seriously. If a group of rioters were hanging nooses in your front yard would you be saying 'all in good fun' once the police arrived?

 

What constitutes a legal duty to you?

 

Agreed. On 11/6 several 1000 of those nuts and their leader attacked our Capitol. They should be punished along with anyone whom we can prove supported them

 

I mean law professors who won't be sitting on the jury.

They are not average people and cannot think like jurors drawn from a cross section of the community.

 

Well, that's for the prosecution to posit and prove, not I.

I'm open to suggestions. But it has to be something specific, not "Trump's a fascist!!"

"A duty to act is often imposed under a statute or from a contractual relationship. Examples include:

• A doctor’s duty to care for patients
• An owners’ duty to protect those who are invited upon his land
• A restaurateur’s duty to provide proper fire escapes for patrons
• Parent’s duty to act affirmatively to safeguard his children and safeguard third persons from his children

Unless there is a statute or contract creating the duty, there will usually be no duty to act. However, a duty may arise when a person voluntarily assumes responsibility for another."

https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/duty-to-act.html?variant=1

 

I said "to you"
This isn't a test, at least not on the overall grade

 

Mitch McConnell exposed as one giant neck

http://thedailyer.com/mitch-mcconnell-exposed-one-giant-neck/

 

I will recognize any duty as a legal duty if established by law or contract. I will respect it so long as it is not flagrantly unconstitutional.

I have no authority to establish any law. If I did have authority, I would require everyone to address me as "Your highness."