What Is The Argument Against Slavery?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by impermanence, Nov 28, 2022.

  1. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    I have never known anybody [including myself] who is pro-slavery, but I believe it would be interesting to discuss exactly why slavery is wrong.

    Anybody care to chime in?
     
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  2. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I will.

    Although the idea of owning another person seems batsh*t crazy, it's been a practice that has been on-going since the beginning of recorded history. And [apparently] people [for all those thousands of years] thought it to be just the way it was, and perhaps little different than the aristocratic societies of Europe and all the other social hierarchies that define every human society. And perhaps you could even make a case for the willful selling of one's labor to another under the present economic system as a distant cousin of the slave-model.

    My question here was, "What exactly is wrong with slavery?" Why is it wrong? What if you had a situation where slaves were treated quite well? Is it still wrong? Are citizens not a type of slave. IOW, if you happen to be born in XYZ country, don't you owe approx half your labor-value earned in taxes to governments? Doesn't that essentially make you a slave to the state?

    It seems to me that there would be a great market in the West if some corporation got into the slave business and offered people exactly what they want...no responsibility of any kind other than to perform required labor, which would be regulated by the state. Kind of sounds like China, no? Is this where human society is heading?
     
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  3. Jolly Penguin

    Jolly Penguin Well-Known Member

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    Yes. It's still wrong even if you pamper the slaves. What's wrong with slavery isn't really the abuse, that's just tacked on. It's the lack of freedom. The inability to walk away.

    I suppose that depends. Are you free to live or is this an East Berlin scenario? If the former then there is an obvious difference between that and slavery.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2022
  4. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member Donor

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    Democrats always seem to be lurking behind this "thought" that "owning" folks isn't that bad. It comes back from time to time, when the most progressive of us determine that only they can do what is best for the rest of us. So, we get threads like this that push essentially two narratives. Rest comfortably in the arms of your masters, or else you wander endlessly in the wilderness....

    The real choice here is be the best you can be, or live up to the lash of the master instead. It isn't even a choice.
     
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  5. MuchAdo

    MuchAdo Well-Known Member

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    These days, modern slavery includes trafficking in persons; slavery; forced servitude; forced marriage; forced labour; debt bondage; child labour; and deceptive recruiting for labour or services. It is a severe form of the exploitation of individuals for the purpose of personal or commercial gain.

    What is wrong with slavery is that vulnerable people are being exploited through coercion, deception and threats. It's against human rights. That's what makes it wrong.
     
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  6. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    Who exactly has freedom and where does it exist? Even if you could "walk away" in your typical free Western country, walk away to where? Isn't freedom one of those, either you are free or you are not free? Were you free during the COVID lock-downs?
     
  7. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    True enough, but why not slaves?
     
  8. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    It's against human rights? What does that mean? Who determines human rights?
     
  9. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    Hereditary slavery is denying a person their dignity - treating them as less than human and exploiting them when they did nothing wrong. Slavery as a punishment for a serious crime, on the other hand, sounds more logical than life in prison. Just my initial musings - not an issue I have thought much about recently.
     
  10. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    I've met a few pro-slavery folks. Not many, except for those who support it historically (not supporting it now, but saying it was justifiable in the past).
     
  11. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Your last question kind of assumes that human rights don't exist.
     
  12. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    It's not that they don't exist, but where exactly do they come from? Who decides what human rights are?
     
  13. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Asking "who decides" automatically assumes that no such rights exist -- that they aren't actually rights but gifts given by an authority. The question itself assumes authoritarianism.
     
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  14. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    Well, other than having the right to pick your master, what exactly constitutes being free?
     
  15. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Not having a master in the first place.
     
  16. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    Where man lives in groups, there is always authority [and hierarchy].
     
  17. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    That can only happen if you are alone.
     
  18. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    Then your assumption is that certain authority figures have rights over other, which you haven't justified.
     
  19. LiveUninhibited

    LiveUninhibited Well-Known Member

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    Being able to do what you want, I suppose. Being enslaved is only one extreme example of not being free, but it's true that it's more of a greyscale than black and white. A young single American with a large inheritance is going to be more free than most, but they won't be free of consequences down the road if they choose poorly. All of us have constraints and responsibilities, but most of us could walk away from our situation if we really wanted to. Toiling for another's benefit without just compensation, against ones will, is slavery. Being subjected to that without it being some kind of deserved punishment, is wrong.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2022
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  20. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    Spelled out or not, that's how societies have operated. It's the way institutions express their will, as well. IOW, teachers and administrators have power over students only in the abstract, but as long as everybody goes along with it... . It's like the government collecting taxes. What [or who] gives governments the authority to tax your labor?

    It's not a matter of justification. There never will be any [other than it's simply what seems to work [generally speaking].
     
  21. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    I would suggest that being free is doing what you have to do as opposed to doing what you want to do.
     
  22. yardmeat

    yardmeat Well-Known Member

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    How do your justify your assumption that slave owners have rights and slaves don't?
     
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  23. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    It's just what people agree to do. What is the justification for private property? How is it possible to "own" land?
     
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  24. Kokomojojo

    Kokomojojo Well-Known Member

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    all contracts are what people 'agree' to do.
    are you talking about slavery or forced servitude?
    Private property and ownership are merely titles of exclusive tenure rights 'under' the state.
    Do you think that dirt below your feet belongs to 'you' and 'you alone' in mrca just because you got a piece of paper says you "own" it?
    If you do better think again! It doesnt!
    In merca it belongs to the 'state' not you, just like it belonged to the landlords in britain, you only 'rent' it under the title of "owner", just like the serfs in britain prerevolution.

    as the saying goes.....and not one shot was fired.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2022
  25. impermanence

    impermanence Well-Known Member

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    So it comes down to whatever people will put up with is ok.

    I posted this thread to get at the foundations of slavery, IOW, what turned the tide on it's legality, and pointing out that although actual slavery is not legal in most of the world, it's more or less a technicality because each individual is forced into similar servitude [to the state] if you choose to participate in society to any degree.

    You can either become a dependent and be treated as a child [if you choose not to support yourself], or a working serf, paying half of your labor-value earned to governments, but either path, you're essentially owned by the state.
     

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