Are there logical fallacies in Christianity?

Discussion in 'Debates & Contests' started by usfan, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    :wall:

    ..nevermind..
    I've always thought that classical 'debates' in written forums are impossible. That perception is only confirmed..
     
  2. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    Well, thanks for the debate, even if it didn't really get started. I told you I could refute any arguments for Christianity easily.
     
  3. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    I will also give my impression of this debate.

    1. The topic was not debated, by anyone asserting the positive claim:
    'There are logical fallacies in Christianity.'
    No reasoning or evidence was submitted for the claim.
    2. Fallacies, not logic, were given. Moved goal posts, straw man, false dilemma, etc
    3. The entire argument for the claim rests on a false dilemma:
    'If you cannot prove God, He does not exist.'
    This assumption is the basis for all dismissals.
    'Since God does not exist, Christianity is illogical!'
    4. Assertion and dismissal, not logical progressions, were the tactics of the positive claimants.
    5. Declaring victory with fist pumps when the topic was ignored only reveals the depths of anti-reason that has befallen progressive education.
    6. Reason is dying, along with civilization, due to progressive Indoctrination. Mandated beliefs, not critical thinking, is drilled into the citizens through constant propaganda.

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. ~Aristotle
     
  4. OldManOnFire

    OldManOnFire Well-Known Member

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    Religion is a cultural system of designated behaviors and practices, morals, worldviews, texts, sanctified places, prophecies, ethics, or organizations, that relates humanity to supernatural, transcendental, or spiritual elements. However, there is no scholarly consensus over what precisely constitutes a religion. Wikipedia

    Christianity is just one of 4200 religions in the world.

    Christianity is just like Islam and most other religions in the sense that each feels it needs to control 'others'. What is wrong with people having whatever mythical beliefs they wish as long as they keep it to themselves? I could care less if someone is Christian or Islam or Dr. Pepper...it's 100% their choice what they do in their private lives. But when they try to force their beliefs on others, this is where people's religious beliefs cross over to righteousness and control.

    If religion was maintained as personal, not forced on others, not held in righteousness, not meant to control others, how can there be any fallacies?
     
  5. Andrew Jackson

    Andrew Jackson Well-Known Member

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    All "organized religion" contains "logical fallacies".

    Nature of the beast, etc.
     
  6. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Active Member

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    Christianity, in and of itself, is logically valid.

    First, let's define the word "religion". Religion, as defined by philosophy, is "an initial circular argument with other arguments stemming from it". Next, let's define "circular argument". A circular argument, as defined by logic, is "an argument which concludes with its initial predicate" (ie, "X, therefore X").

    The initial circular argument of Christianity is "Jesus Christ exists and is who he says he is". Any other argument which Christianity makes, such as "Jesus' body was not found in the tomb after three days, therefore Jesus resurrected", stems back to the aforementioned circular argument of Christianity. Thus, Christianity is a religion.

    Now, is it LOGICAL though? Aren't circular arguments one of the major logical fallacies?? Well, yes and no... Circular arguments are NOT logically fallacious in and of themselves, since they do follow the foundational axiom of logic that a conclusion must follow from its predicate(s). A circular argument only becomes fallacious if one attempts to prove it (ie, one does not recognize the circular nature of their argument). Another way of saying circular argument is "argument of faith", since faith is another word for circular reasoning.

    Therefore, Christianity is logically valid so long as one bases their belief on a faith basis. Same goes for any other religion, including Atheism.
     
  7. emilynghiem

    emilynghiem Active Member Past Donor

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    Hi @usfan and @Distraff
    I would like to participate in working through this challenge.
    My guess is that all sides will equally gain as contribute to greater understanding
    by the time we finish this discussion. Everyone has equal points about right
    and wrong to make, and given what I learn from experience, this usually comes out about even.

    1. First what I would argue Christianity means that is universal,
    the spirit of CHARITY is the saving Grace that saves human relations
    and brings out the best in humanity. So collectively, that spirit of charity
    or unconditional love compels the power in life of good to overcome anything negative over time.

    You can call this love, or compassion, but that is the driving force
    that is the focus of Christianity.

    2. specifically the power of FORGIVENESS is ultimately what
    opens the door to transformation and healing, and love conquering fear,
    or good will conquering ill will. In order for TRUTH and WISDOM to
    overcome ignorance, error and misunderstanding, FORGIVENESS
    is necessary for the corrections to be received.

    So the idea in Christianity is that we must forgive first in order
    be forgiven. This approach is what makes RESTORATIVE JUSTICE
    work, which is how I would explain the meaning of CHRIST JESUS.

    To explain and defend the meaning of Christ Jesus as universal
    and the key to "saving humanity," I argue that the authority in
    Christ Jesus represents:
    * Restorative Justice
    * Equal Justice under Law
    * Justice with Mercy
    * Peace and Justice for All

    What makes Jesus unique is representing the spirit of Divine Justice
    and collective redemption process that BREAKS the cycle of sin or "karma"
    from the past, so that humanity can receive forgiveness and correction
    to heal and recover from past wars and injustice, in order to achieve peace.

    Having "FAITH" in the process of JUSTICE to be established PEACEFULLY
    for all people through forgiveness that brings HEALING is the ultimate meaning behind having faith in Jesus as the saving grace for all humanity. It's about
    believing in Restorative Justice and the power of love and forgiveness
    to break the cycle of injustice and restore TRUTH JUSTICE and PEACE for all humanity worldwide, as well as collectively if you want to include all history.

    3. and last what I will say are the worst contradictions taught in Christianity

    A. acting, preaching, judging and condemning others with UNFORGIVENESS
    if the message is supposed to be about FORGIVENESS and undeserved grace
    that saves us when we ourselves are imperfect as humans and bound to fall short.

    This flaw can be corrected by agreeing to receive correction with FORGIVENESS,
    so even the hypocrisy and mistakes can be used to teach the real message.

    B. Rejection of secular gentiles who use natural laws and nontheistic terms for
    expressing universal truths

    Jesus in the Bible referred indirectly to gentiles as sheep he governs in a separate
    fold of the one flock, and that these gentiles who having not the law but do the
    things contained in the law become a law unto themselves.

    If Christianity is misrepresented or misperceived as excluding, rejecting or
    condemning secular gentiles who think nontheistically in terms of natural laws,
    then this contradiction totally undermines the idea that God's will is supreme
    and atheists or other nonchristians exist for a reason, not by some evil scheme
    of Satan, but have a positive role and purpose as part of God's plan if it is truly supreme.

    The idea that the gentiles under natural laws, which Jesus equally governs, would
    be excluded from salvation makes zero sense if God created both folds and if Jesus
    authority is over ALL such dominions of laws and authorities (Colossians 1:16).

    So the two biggest contradictions I find among Christians are
    * this false exclusion rejection or judgment against secular gentiles
    just because they do not understand scriptural language for the same concepts
    that can better be translated into SECULAR terms in order to include nontheists;
    and
    * the inability to follow Scriptures on reconciling and restoring good faith
    relations when trying to address rebuke or correction (Matthew 18:15-20)
    because people refuse to forgive or ask help to forgive conflicts with others.

    Both can be corrected by following Christian teachings, principles and scriptures.
    But currently, if this is not taught correctly,
    these cause the worst contradictions where Christians appear to violate
    their own principles.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
    usfan likes this.
  8. BillRM

    BillRM Well-Known Member

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    Hundreds of years ago a man locked in a small French cell and at risk of having his head cut off at any time wrote a book by the name of "The Age of Reason" that blow holes in the Christian bible an it so call logic.

    His name is Thomas Paine and his book is available online.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019
  9. emilynghiem

    emilynghiem Active Member Past Donor

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    Dear @BillRM
    There is a difference between pointing out the hypocrisy and contradictions
    in CHRISTIAN INSTITUTIONS AND LEADERSHIP
    vs. the meaning of the Bible and Christianity.

    All the arguments made by Paine or others
    apply to the flawed TEACHINGS that "contradict themselves".

    However, these arguments do not apply to
    CORRECT teachings and interpretations of the Bible.

    Examples:
    1. Regarding the contradictions based on condemning people for disbelief

    Yes, false Christian "hypocrites" who condemn others can be proven contradictory.
    But this FALSE APPROACH can be shown to CONTRADICT the laws in the Bible and Jesus teaching.
    So the Bible can be used to check against these FALSE CONDEMNATIONS
    without throwing the Bible out or trying to blame Christianity itself.

    2. In general, Christians condemning "secular gentiles" or "nontheists" for
    following Natural Laws and not the Bible, can also be shown to contradictory to the Bible.

    Jesus refers to sheep in a different fold of the one flock he governs separately.

    The interpretations of the Bible and Christianity I find that can INCLUDE and EXPLAIN the
    Deists, nontheists, natural law humanist approaches, and even atheists
    are that Jesus as "the authority of Divine/Universal Justice" ALSO
    fulfills the path of NATURAL LAWS which includes SCIENCE AND REASON.

    Thus, this path (which Paine, Jefferson and others follow by NATURAL LAWS,
    reason, free will and conscience) is INCLUDED in Christianity and the Bible
    IF THEY ARE TAUGHT THIS WAY.

    3. Thus, it depends how Christianity and the Bible are taught.

    Paine and others run the risk of setting up
    STRAW MAN ARGUMENTS
    by equating the Bible/Christianity with ONLY THOSE CONTRADICTORY ways of teaching.

    However, if the Bible and Christianity are taught to be consistent and inclusive
    of natural laws, based on reason and free choice, these conflicts are resolved.

    ===============================================================
    4. P.S. if you want more scientific demonstration and replicated studies
    to show how "the authority of Christ Jesus" works as Christians teach,
    I suggest to replicate formal medical studies on the process of
    Spiritual Healing -- where recovery and cure of various causes of diseases, addictions,
    disorders, mental physical or social ills is based on therapy involving deeper levels of forgiveness,
    especially "generational" therapy to remove unconscious levels of obsessions, phobias, addictions,
    delusions and other mental disorders beyond the person's ability to control or comply.


    This is one area that I believe science can demonstrate the effect of Christian prayer
    in curing patients, where medical or mental treatment alone is not enough to address the root causes of sickness.


    If secular humanists want SCIENTIFIC PROOF of what it means for prayers in Christ Jesus authority
    to "perform miracles", try applying these methods to cure criminally sick people nothing else will cure.
    Even if the cause and effect cannot be proven on a "spiritual level"
    the CORRELATION can be proven between
    * rates of recovery in Schizophrenic or criminally ill patients CORRELATING with
    the degrees of FORGIVENESS reported in spiritual healing therapy
    * rates of FAILURE to cure or recover CORRELATING with
    REFUSING to forgive and comply with the healing therapy


    SOURCES I recommend for replicating studies for further medical research and development:
    * Drs. Francis and Judith MacNutt
    HEALING (edition 1999 or later) www.christianhealingmin.org
    * Dr. Scott Peck
    GLIMPSES OF THE DEVIL
    * Dr. Phillip Goldfedder
    www.healingisyours.com
    These are examples of professionals who changed their approach to medical treatment
    after witnessing how the healing prayers worked to heal root causes of ills that medicine alone could not cure.
     
  10. BillRM

    BillRM Well-Known Member

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    I am always amaze how seeming rational men and women can give any credit to the christian bible that I reject myself at age ten to eleven as complete nonsense.

    Lord I was happy when I first came across Paine writings and found that I have allies in the founding fathers an later yet came across Jefferson writings.

    The nonsense that the founding fathers was all deeply Christians is what I then begin to label to myself as lying for Jesus.

    footnote there was studies done about the effect of people praying for the sick and zero repeat zero benefit was found.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
  11. emilynghiem

    emilynghiem Active Member Past Donor

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    Dear @BillRM: aside from the interpretation of Jesus and the Bible you found to be lying, nonsense, false and without credible meaning,
    are you okay with the interpretation that Jesus and the Bible represent
    a "universal process" by which humanity comes to terms with Justice and Peace for All.

    Would you find merit in the interpretation of faith in Christ Jesus
    meaning someone having "belief that RESTORATIVE JUSTICE can save relationships" (in healing people and relations with others after injustice and wrongs had previously broken their faith, even destroyed their relations and lives).

    What do you think of THAT interpretation as more general about humanity's growth and development to social maturity.

    Which studies are you referring to @BillRM
    1. there was a study on heart patients using "intercessory prayer"
    2. I am referring to the methods used by Dr. Francis MacNutt which were proven to have effective impact on Rheumatoid Arthritis patients (in a published study funded by Templeton Foundation)
    3. NOTE: the DIFFERENCE between these methods is whether the patients undergo spiritual FORGIVENESS through DELIVERANCE therapy instead of just external prayers without internal change.

    Are you taking into account which studies involved internal changes and forgiveness in patients
    in order to facilitate natural healing? And which ones may not have included or measured that factor?

    Because the FORGIVENESS factor is what makes the difference in healing and recovery.

    P.S. Understanding Jesus and Christianity does not have to negate or conflict with aligning more with Paine and secular approaches to natural laws. Many people can align and live by Christian faith and principles and still remain Atheist, Buddhist, nontheist etc. If you relate more to Paine's language and reasoning, that just means you are more secular gentile. There should not be any conflict between natural laws and the spiritual laws in Christianity or the Bible, if these are truly universal in scope. Just because the language is different doesn't mean they are in conflict. Like any other diverse languages, as long as we understand the meaning, we should be able to translate back and forth between terms used in either system of expressing universal laws.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
  12. emilynghiem

    emilynghiem Active Member Past Donor

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    Hi @usfan Another funny one, for my friends who interpret
    the Bible LITERALLY to mean earth days:

    Think about how God could have created everything in 6 LITERAL earth-days.
    If the sun and earth were not created yet, why would the earth-day be
    used to measure this time?

    (which is why it makes more sense to me to interpret
    Days to mean Ages or Epochs. otherwise it sounds silly to me!)

     
  13. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    May I politely suggest the dust of far too many theological tomes has clogged your mind?
     
  14. gfm7175

    gfm7175 Active Member

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    Insulting my intelligence is not a valid argument... It is a logical fallacy.
     
  15. Dissily Mordentroge

    Dissily Mordentroge Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I wasn’t insulting your intellence but drawing attention to the dangers, even to the most intelligent of willingly trying to absorb centuries of gibberish.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  16. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    After reading your OP I thought you were anti-religion. It looks like that was incorrect.

    Ok. I'll look at one item from your list that I think is not correct. I do think in some cases you are correct, however, AND I think that most of your points are unimportant and represent mere quibbling.

    The arguments I've seen claiming errors in the bible are not concerned with historical records. Rather, they are concerned with contradictions within the bible. For example, ...

    MT 1:20 The angel spoke to Joseph.
    LK 1:28 The angel spoke to Mary.

    MT 4:1-11, MK 1:12-13 Immediately following his Baptism, Jesus spent forty days in the wilderness resisting temptation by the Devil.
    JN 2:1-11 Three days after the Baptism, Jesus was at the wedding in Cana.

    MT 9:18 The ruler's daughter was already dead when Jesus raised her.
    LK 8:42 She was dying, but not dead.

    MT 28:1-2 The stone was still in place when they arrived. It was rolled away later.
    MK 16:4, LK 24:2, JN 20:1 The stone had already been rolled (or taken) away.

    MK 16:1-2 The women came to the tomb to anoint the body.
    JN 19:39-40 The body had already been anointed and wrapped in linen cloth.

    MK 1:14 Jesus began his ministry after the arrest of John the Baptist.
    JN 3:22-24 Before the arrest of John the Baptist.

    MK 3:29 Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin.
    AC 13:39, CN 2:13, 1JN 1:9 All sins are forgivable.


    These I consider to be errors as they are mutually exclusive. Now, bear in mind that "believers" have proven many, many times that they are able to dance around such contradictions and "explain" what was meant and how they can be understood so as to not present contradictions. But without such "weasel words" and dancing, we are left with the passages as they are, and as they are they present contradictions. I think if we are going to examine apparent or possible contradictions in the bible, we must strictly examine the bible and not explanations and thoughts about it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019 at 1:18 PM
  17. Buri

    Buri Active Member

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    and there the moral and logical argument was tossed away. we're done here.
     

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