Challenge "the quran"

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by Bishadi, Dec 31, 2011.

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  1. Fatihah

    Fatihah Banned

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    Response: The amusement continues, as the deluded non-muslim still dodges the responsibility to address the filth in his own bible and tries to attack islam. Yet any person can see that throughout the forum, all of your previous attacks have been adddressed. Yet when I present just one post for you to address in your bible, you run and hide and try to change the sugject. You arre truly amusing. Let's try again and see if you'll run this time.


    Lev.14: 49-53- To clean the house from a plague, sprinkle the house with the blood of dead birds.

    Lev.12: 1-5- females are born double polluted than males.

    Luke 14:26- You must hate your family to be a disciple of Jesus.

    Ephes.5: 22-24- women must submit to their husbands.

    Isaiah 7:20 God shaves with a high razor.

    2 Samuels 22:11- God rides on a cherub.( Animal with wings or a naked female with wings).

    Then it gets even more disgusting.

    Ezekiel.16:8 God makes love to a young girl. Verses 16-34, she becomes a whore and 35-42, God punishes her out of jealousy.

    You really have to read this part. In 2 Samuels 12:2-5, David sleeps with the Wife of Uriah and she conceives a child. Verses 6-13, King David invites Uriah over for a meal and afterwards he sleeps at the door of King David's house.

    Now watch this.

    Verses 14 - 27, David gives a letter to Uriah to give to Joab. The letter reads that Joab is to put Uriah on the frontline of the hottest battle so he can die. When he dies, he takes Uriah's mourning wife and marries her, and she bares his son. This displeased God.

    But wait. I'm not finished yet. It get's even more despicable.

    The next chapter, from verse 1-13, God sends Nathan to state to David that HE is displeased by the fact that David abused his authority by having s child with Uriah's wife and then having him killed. But.......God actually forgave David. Instead...............as verses 14- 18 read, God instead kills his newborn child!!

    What!!!

    2 Samuels 13: 10-14- David's son Amnon rapes his own sister Tamar.

    That's enough. I could go on for days. What I've just posted is actually scriptural and found in your bible. Clearly, the Bible is not the word or inspired word of God.
     
  2. Fatihah

    Fatihah Banned

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    Response: Simple. The Qur'an is the word of Allah, who is the originator off all creation, including Moses and Abraham.
     
  3. SupremusVeritas

    SupremusVeritas New Member

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    You need to watch more TV ;-)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJ9fy1qSFI"]Mythbusters Polishing a Turd - YouTube[/ame]
     
  4. Mehmet

    Mehmet New Member

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    sorry for the delayed answer.

    about rushd & razi;
    people get cought up in hellen. it happens.

    my opinion is;
    the ancient greek and philosophy should be learned well and
    then it should be forgotten completely.

    at later ages, if you meet philosophy for the first time, those
    “vibrating” ideas might cause a different kind of impact.

    with all the traumas of life accumulated, one can see those ideas
    as undoped and liberating, but in fact they are limited and only
    delaying one’s true maturity.

    once the deviation or the vicious cycle in thoughts begins,
    there isn’t much to do. the connection through heart is bypassed,
    brute religious logic has taken over. (in islam we seek both, balanced)

    i reassure you, the effect doesn't last long, but people choose to
    make it last. putting themselves asleep, while thinking they are
    freeing themselves… from?

    manipulation, compulsion, angoisse, regrets and dead ends.
    (what religion may have become to them)

    but what’s that gotta do with Allah?
    people tyrannize themselves and others.
    they don’t accept the intellectual humility, they err when they
    are unable to grasp the meaning or the nature of things.

    there is no real awakening in philosophy.
    it’s just raw information in various abstract forms,

    it’s like deifying jesus (pbuh):
    you can’t grasp the notion of Allah being beyond matter.
    mind needs an absolute image, a certain understanding.
    it has to be soothed.

    same with philosophy, the notions start to make sense.
    but in fact they are just a bunch of theories for a desperate
    attempt to ease our minds.

    prof. gruhn says to his students in the highest calculus class:
    “don’t you forget, the most mistakes you’ll do
    in your mathematics career, will be in 2x2.” ​
    we often fall because we spend our time looking at the horizon,
    rather than checking what’s in front of us… and surely the stones
    that will make us trip and fall are right in the reach of our footsteps.

    you must bow down your head, look right in front, and keep walking.

    hard to accept? i tell you; you’ll see that you have reached to 100000
    steps in no time.

    philosophy does not let you look what’s in front of you.
    to the actual matters. because it catches you with a
    striking question, then you can’t get out of it with your
    20-30-40 or xxx years of understanding of religion and life.
    your gaze gets stuck over the horizion looking for more meaning
    without any reference point.

    and one day you give up. the system restarts,
    the hidden agenda comes out: “i”.
    yes the capital i. so subtle yet strong.

    many has come to islam because they found the basics and
    “the” sense in life. not complicated theories, and more questions
    but actual facts about how to set your goals and prioirities, how
    to stop lying to self and how to get a meaningful life.

    by giving up other endless pursuits.
    and turning your face to Allah, the ultimate truth.

    by walking on the path of taming their “nafs”.

    westerners love “tasawwuf”…
    i don’t. i look into it, but i am not into it.
    bunch of deviations come from it if you ask me...

    though it might help you see things from a different perspective.

    sometimes you value things better
    when you are an outsider.

    i’ll stop here about the agnosts & athes.
    the post is already long enough…

    i seek refuge in Allah from useless information.
    may Allah give us endurance and loyalty.

    so back to your philosophical question...
    “the purpose”

    it’s a long and progressive discussion.
    i wish we could talk face to face…

    but since you’ve asked,
    i will try to answer in written form with my limited english.
    i hope i will be able to express my thoughts clear enough
    to at least make sense.

    let's start with the phrase "serving Allah".
    what is serving Allah?
    is it to state shehadeh?
    to pray 5 times a day?
    to fast at ramadan?
    to run after good deeds?
    to remember Allah persistently?
    to put your own will under Allah’s?
    to live for Allah’s consent?
    to be truly connected with your creator?
    to understand the final guidance, the qur’an?
    to purify your intentions?
    to follow muhammed (saw) the best you can?
    or to go to heaven?​
    all of the above and much much more.

    there is a wide scala when you say the word “muslim”.
    although the belief system refers to a single adjective,
    what we have inside is very colorful.
    yet the basics remain intact for all…

    the entrence to the palace, the very shiny door
    is to “acknowledge” the source of guidance.

    all the knowledge. all this good.

    where do they come from?

    what are the attributes of the source?

    what am i asked to do?

    “know where to stand and know thy creator”.
    position yourself correctly towards Allah.

    ok sure but… the purpose?
    how do we serve Allah?

    let's start with the notion “hanif”.

    did abraham (pbuh) had an “organized religion” when
    he has been chosen? or most of the prophets?
    read here:
    6:74-80
    and [mention, o muhammad], when abraham said to his
    father azar, "do you take idols as deities? indeed, i see
    you and your people to be in manifest error."

    and thus did we show abraham the realm of the heavens
    and the earth that he would be among the certain [in faith]

    so when the night covered him [with darkness], he saw a star.
    he said, "this is my lord." but when it set, he said, "i like not
    those that disappear."

    and when he saw the moon rising, he said, "this is my lord."
    but when it set, he said, "unless my lord guides me, i will surely
    be among the people gone astray."

    and when he saw the sun rising, he said, "this is my lord; this
    is greater." but when it set, he said, "o my people, indeed i
    am free from what you associate with Allah .

    indeed, i have turned my face toward he who created the
    heavens and the earth, inclining toward truth, and i am not
    of those who associate others with Allah ."

    and his people argued with him. he said, "do you argue with me
    concerning Allah while he has guided me? and i fear not what you
    associate with him [and will not be harmed] unless my lord should
    will something. my lord encompasses all things in knowledge; then
    will you not remember?
    the beautiful story about how to ponder upon the creation of Allah.
    and have a conclusion. and an example which has very deep meanings
    but no time or space to discuss them…

    this passage from my understanding is mainly to stress on staying away
    from associating anything with Allah and taking the rope of guidance with
    no altering motivations.

    what is this that we are talking about?
    what is stressed here?

    fitrah perhabs?

    that is put inside of us since day 1.
    so we are not starting already beaten,
    like christians claim with original sin.

    we are in fact in advantage.

    we are supported by fitrah. the belief in Allah.
    the tendency towards your one and only master.
    that's the push from Allah. yes, the fitrah.
    but how do we deal with it?

    we embrace it sincerely
    or we conceal it from ourselves
    and others.

    again; what is the word for the one
    who conceals it?

    yes, the word “k – f – r”.

    correct, kaffir.
    the disbeliever.
    in fact, the “concealer”, the one who hides.

    so even there is not one single muslim in the world.
    abraham (pbuh) was able to walk on the straight path,
    by permission of Allah.

    and then he was chosen.
    because he was chosen by Allah to become that.
    (al-Aleem)

    so based on this passage,
    even in a jungle it is possible to seek Allah?
    yes it is.

    or in the same jungle, you can follow what
    your forefathers have been doing.

    the father of abraham (pbuh) was building idols
    for the ruler. the society was against him.

    so how do you know how Allah will be pleased by
    his servant… the one who turned to him in the middleof no where?

    because as i mentioned before, if he didn’t get the message
    Allah guaranteed that he would not punish him.
     
  5. Mehmet

    Mehmet New Member

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    he also mentions:

    2:286
    Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity.
    It will have [the consequence of] what [good] it has gained, and it
    will bear [the consequence of] what [evil] it has earned.
    "Our Lord,
    do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred. Our Lord,
    and lay not upon us a burden like that which You laid upon those
    before us. Our Lord, and burden us not with that which we have no
    ability to bear. And pardon us; and forgive us; and have mercy upon
    us. You are our protector, so give us victory over the disbelieving people."

    how do you know it’s not a mercy to that person,
    but a punishment? think about it…
    how do we know? why does it have to be a bad thing?

    he is not responsible from all the things islam puts
    on our shoulders (rightfully).

    but still he will not be held responsible.
    thus, according to this logic, it might as well be a blessing
    for that specific person.

    today, we are in the middle of a jungle ourselves, surrunded by walls
    of disinformation, but people still find the truth.

    so how do you know the person in the wilderness
    will not be accepted as a sincere servant as long as he acts
    according to his "fitrah" and seeks Allah, his creator.

    and by that endurance and faith,
    how do you know he won’t be rewarded?

    the thing is... only Allah knows.
    we just have couple of clues and interpretations.

    the thing about faith is if it seems in the middle,
    take the positive attitude towards Allah.

    why does Allah have to be calculating bad things?
    Allah loves you more than your mother.
    because he has made you. he knows what’s inside
    of you, your mother doesn’t.

    Allah is keeping a lot of things in the closet.

    the thing you must understand here is:
    we are not in the position to seek any rights.
    but we do because deep inside we are sure that Allah has
    created justice and he is the most just. he doesn’t miss
    the tinest deed we commit, evil or good.

    we must stop thinking on behalf of Allah.
    and we must stop searching for “unannounced” things
    and accept them as bad things.

    hence “subhanAllah”.
    you know what that means.

    another point is that…
    behind this question there lays hidden
    the ferocious (but not so veracious) lion.

    “the ego” who is not willing to submit.
    it is that simple.

    how my reason to exist can be just to serve Allah?
    while i can do all sorts of things.

    you do as he says.
    as he says.
    exactly as he says.

    you’ll see why.

    17:44
    the seven heavens and the earth and whatever is
    in them exalt him. and there is not a thing except
    that it exalts [ Allah ] by his praise, but you do not
    understand their [way of] exalting. indeed, he is
    ever forbearing and forgiving.

    24:41-42
    do you not see that Allah is exalted by whomever
    is within the heavens and the earth and [by] the birds
    with wings spread [in flight]? each [of them] has
    known his [means of] prayer and exalting [him],
    and Allah is knowing of what they do.

    and to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens
    and the earth, and to Allah is the destination.
    how do birds serve Allah?
    or plants?

    we don’t understand their language or
    how and what they are doing exactly.

    but look at the nature.
    ever single creature is doing his task.

    we are the only creature that doesnt fulfill his
    reason to be created.

    16:123
    Then We revealed to you, [O Muhammad], to follow
    the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth; and
    he was not of those who associate with Allah .

    25:77
    Say, "What would my Lord care for you if not for your
    supplication?" For you [disbelievers] have denied, so
    your denial is going to be adherent.

    51:56
    And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to
    worship Me.
    to understand this.
    you must understand worship.
    the relationship between you and your creator…
    2:30
    And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord
    said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the
    earth a successive authority
    ." They said, "Will
    You place upon it one who causes corruption
    therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your
    praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed,
    I know that which you do not know."

    6:165
    And it is He who has made you successors upon
    the earth and has raised some of you above others
    in degrees [of rank] that He may try you through
    what He has given you. Indeed, your Lord is swift
    in penalty; but indeed, He is Forgiving and Merciful.

    we don’t run after comforting, helping,
    researching cures for the blind.
    but we sit in our comfortable chairs
    ask why the blind is created as blind.

    how much knowledge do we have?

    i think we should all leave everyone’s personal relationship
    with Allah to them and focus on ourselves.

    leave the jungle man, excavate yourself.
    because according to my understanding, Allah has chosen
    his servant to serve him there for a specific purpose. and you
    are chosen to serve in another place.

    are we doing good, fulfilling our end of the deal?

    what are we loyal to?
    what is our mind is serving?
    51:50
    So flee to Allah. Indeed, I am to you from Him a clear warner.
    because it serves to “something” even if you are aware of it or not.
    you’d better be on the right side and serve Allah.
    the magneficent; the creator of good, the love, the truth and the reality.
    the source.

    Allah will guide whoever he wants.
    it’s the endurance and countinuity that counts.

    what i just wrote were my interpretations basing
    on what i have learned so far. so they might be wrong.

    Allah knows best.
    may Allah forgive me for our shortcomings.
     
  6. Mehmet

    Mehmet New Member

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    let me start by saying this: a religious democracy
    can not exist. If it does then it is meant to collapse
    sooner or later by giving huge loss to humanity.

    the religion, if you think about it, must be more fair
    than any man made systems or thought. since it’s
    from Allah, our creator.

    thus islam must contain solutions for both this world
    and the next… if you mingle both, it’s a useless attempt
    to satisfy both views, where you’ll wind up with nothing
    or an extremely unfair system.

    you will surely have serious legal and social problems.

    same as countries who are forcing “their version of islam”.
    i find these systems worse than secularism.
    and i am not defending secularism in any way.

    separation of… people and people, from people.

    islam should be progressive in the sense of “conquering”
    the world with pen. expressing ideas and let people come
    in by setting an example for the rest of the world.

    also economically. muslims have the means.

    but why muslims lack stamina? is it because
    we have given our blood willingly to the vampires? or
    are we too worried about the next world than we forgot
    about this one? or maybe religion should be practiced
    at home freely but shoudn’t be implemented on the
    governments because people are very easily manipulated
    by abusing religion? some points to ponder upon.

    tayyip erdogan is surely not the solution.
    nor turkey. i know why west keeps pushing us
    as a solution...

    we can’t have secularism involved.
    i know very well how it works.

    this is true salaffiya gains ground.
    especially in the usa, thus in the world.

    you say salafis are representing islam the fullest, the best...
    with their "we are the closests followers" manifesto.

    and i say it’s merely an interpretation.
    today you cannot label this interpretation as “the islam”.

    you know the hadith of “73 factions of islam”…
    since every single group claims to be ehl-i sunnat.

    there must be a way to unite all muslims.
    i have couple of views but i’d rather not share.

    for they are my personal views,
    not strong enough to change the world.

    ----

    i won’t have too much time nowadays.
    i may not follow these threads.

    send me a pm where you posted your message,
    or post the answer directly through pm…
    if you wanna keep the discussion going, that is.
    and i’ll try to get back to you in a week or so, insa’Allah.


    may Allah guide you and your family.
    selam.
     
  7. WanRen

    WanRen New Member Past Donor

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    You did not address anything, but continue to avoid answering legitimate questions. I know that Islam means submission that is why I understand why you have no answer I admire your devotion to Islam but are you not interested in the truth?, still the question are:

    1. What are the abrogated verses?
    2. Why are abrogated verses still in the Quran?
    3. If it is intented to be in the Quran inspite of the it being cancelled why no footnotes letting readers know that such verse has been abrogated and by which abrogating verse?

    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur'an
     
  8. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Huh ? Logical fallacy .. your claim that the Qur'an is the word of God is not evidence for anything.

    Are you 100% sure that the Qur'an is the word of God ?
     
  9. Fatihah

    Fatihah Banned

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    Response: Amusing. You dodge the degrading filth in your own bible yet again and try to ask questions of islam instead. You are truly entertaining.
     
  10. Fatihah

    Fatihah Banned

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    The challenge presented in the OP proves that the qur'an is the word of Allah. For challenge provides a hands on-eyewitness account that inspiring enough followers to conquer a nation, or just the street you live on, by using human-made speech/literature that goes against what the people want is humanly impossible, because anyone who takes the challenge will fail and not come close to answering it. And since it is clearly humanly impossible to use human-made speech/literature to achieve the act, then that means that the Qur'an that Muhammad used to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation was not the invention of any human/s, but from one who has greater power and authority than humans, and that is Allah.
     
  11. WanRen

    WanRen New Member Past Donor

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    In fact you have been degrading your own faith, you keep posting threads about the quran in the Bible section. Are you attempting to corrupt the thread just like you corrupted the quran?


    still the question are:

    1. What are the abrogated verses?
    2. Why are abrogated verses still in the Quran?
    3. If it is intented to be in the Quran inspite of the it being cancelled why no footnotes letting readers know that such verse has been abrogated and by which abrogating verse?

    Here I'll help you understand your quran
    http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur'an

    Quran is the word of Mohammed not Allah that is why so many verses have been abrogated.
     
  12. OJLeb

    OJLeb New Member

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    Such as? Provide some verses.
     
  13. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is actually quite common throughout history for the raging masses to be inspired to conquer a nation, nevermind impossible, so this is not even good evidence for your claim much less a certainty.

    Are you 100% sure the Qur'an is the word of God ?
     
  14. OJLeb

    OJLeb New Member

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    So your saying if I started preaching a new religion on the streets, I could accomplish what Muhammad SAW accomplished?

    Yes the Quran is 100% the word of Allah SWT. That's what we believe, as Muslims.

    سلام
     
  15. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You need to check your reading comprehension.

    That was not the question. The question is, "are you 100% sure that the Qur'an is the word of God.
     
  16. OJLeb

    OJLeb New Member

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    That's what you said, is it not?

    You replies to

    With

    or else then what do you mean when you say that ^

    Yes, 100% sure it is. If it was changed, Allah SWT would have sent another messenger with His Message. Like he did Musa (Moses, PBUH), then Isa (Jesus, PBUH). After the Torah and Bible were changed, he sent Muhammad (PBIH) withe the Quran, to lead the people back to the original messages of the past Scriptures.

    سلام
     
  17. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So your saying if I started preaching a new religion on the streets, I could accomplish what Muhammad SAW accomplished?

    My claim does not restrict the human-made speech/literature to "preaching religion". Your above claim does.


    .

    There was a religious component in many cases throughout history, as in the case of Islam, Egypt - Phahaoh's were considered to be half man/half God after the king-making ritual. Christianity has many such examples. Israel is another example. Mayan, Inca, Aztec.

    There are also non religious examples such as Stalin, Hitler (Hitler fits into the religious catagory as well depending on who you talk to), Ghengus Khan, Napoleon, and many other Charismatic Leaders throughout history.


    How can you be 100% sure of something that you can not prove and for which there are many alternate explanations ? Making such a claim indicates that in this area you have lost the capacity for objective and independent thought. By this I mean that your mind refuses to consider "alternate" explanations. In your case you reject even the possibility that an alternate explanation could exist.

    The truth is that you have no idea whether or not Muhammad's claims about being visited by an angel are true. The fact that it took 25 years to write the Qur'an should cause at least some doubt.

    How did Muhammad know it was God and not some wicked spirit talking to him ?

    There is simply no way to be 100% certain.
     
  18. Mehmet

    Mehmet New Member

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    1) the message

    the message should speak for itself.
    read the book.

    don't take if it from muslims nor anyone else.

    2) the character of the receiver

    you must watch and examine the character
    of the messenger (saw). truly. not to find an error,
    but honestly looking for the motivation and
    the behaviour.

    to understand the psychology of a false
    prophet and a real prophet, you must start
    by believing in Allah (God). then look at the
    history of religions. also study the psychology
    of a believer.

    if the water is clean (the qur'an)
    then the pipe (the prophet - saw) should be clean too.

    you can't get clean water by pooring
    it in a dirty pipe.

    26:209-216
    ...
    As a reminder; and never have We been unjust.
    And the devils have not brought the revelation down.
    It is not allowable for them, nor would they be able.
    Indeed they, from [its] hearing, are removed.
    So do not invoke with Allah another deity and [thus] be among the punished.
    And warn, [O Muhammad], your closest kindred.
    And lower your wing to those who follow you of the believers.
    And if they disobey you, then say, "Indeed, I am disassociated from what you are doing."
    ...

    81:22-26
    ...
    And your companion is not [at all] mad.
    And he has already seen Gabriel in the clear horizon.
    And Muhammad is not a withholder of [knowledge of] the unseen.
    And the Qur'an is not the word of a devil, expelled [from the heavens].
    Then where are you going?
    ...
     
  19. OJLeb

    OJLeb New Member

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    But it was in response to A religious topic, so I replied keeping it. Axed in religion. After all, this is a discussion about religion.

    None of those religions spread as Islam did. The experience of Muhammad SAW isn't comparable to those others you mention. He preached in the heart of the Pagan tribes of Arabia, and was hated for it, however he succeeded and look at Islam now.

    Mehmet did a good job answering the rest of the post.

    The proof is in the Quran, where is your proof to prove otherwise or disprove he was actually spoken to by Allah SWT through an angel?

    سلام
     
  20. WanRen

    WanRen New Member Past Donor

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    If you have read the link you will notice there are many abrogated and abrogating verses http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur'an

    Muslim scholars have confirm the rule of abrogation.

    Sura 2:256 There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

    That verse is consider abrogated by Sura 9:29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. and Sura 9:5 And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

    Sura 2:256 was reveal earlier before Sura 9:29 and 9:5 it covers the same main essence with Sura 9:5 and 9:29 and that is how to treat none believers. Sura 2:256 state that do not force people to believe. Sura 9:29 and 9:5 contradict that verse by stating that none believers should be punish.

    And since sura 9:5 and 9:29 were reveal later after 2:256 according to Muslim scholars the rule is the later verse over rides the much earlier verse.
    http://answering-islam.org/Silas/abrogation.htm

    IMO, It would seem that there are two sets of Muslims following two different rule (1) Follow the Mecca stage the time where verses were more none violent, tolerant, Christian like.
    (2) Medina stage, verses here are more aggressive and violent that tend to contradicts many of the earlier verses reveal in Mecca.

    And according to historians the reason why Meccan verses are less violent was because Mohammed was finding a common ground and to appeal to Christians and Jews in Mecca to get the Meccans to accept Islam without resorting to fighting because Mohammed did not have a military force strong enough to fight he Meccans at the same time he did not feel like fighting the Meccans. Early heretical Christians in Mecca as well as Jews at first showed great support because Mohammed was preaching about one God which conforms with their own.

    On the other hand the Medina verses are more violent, anti Christian and anti Jew because by that time Mohammed have a strong army and he started to alienate the Christians and Jews especially when the Jews started to doubt him and distant themselves from him that is when his teachings become more anti Christian and anti Jew.

    Muslims of today are not aware of the abrogation rule and many peaceful Muslims are following the Meccan verses without realising that most of the verses have been cancelled by later verses which sadly are more violent instead of being more peaceful.

    Because of the abrogation rule cancelling earlier verses there is very little justifiable grounds for peaceful Muslims to stand on especially since there is no separation of Islam and State. If there is a separation like in Turkey then the rule of secular law will prevail over religion in this case Islam.

    Many Muslim scholars who have spoke against the establish Islam have been punish.

     
  21. Mehmet

    Mehmet New Member

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  22. Fatihah

    Fatihah Banned

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    Response: Yet if asked of what proof you have that the challenge was met throughout history, the answer would be "because a book says so', which is clearly false logic, thus proving nothing. Furthermore, it is hearsay, while the challenge provides a hands-on eyewitnes account that the act is impossible, so stating hearsay is more credible than an eyewitness account fails again. Thus the challenge of the qur'an still holds as proof that the qur'an is the true word of Allah, for the qur'an challenge provides a hands on-eyewitness account that inspiring enough followers to conquer a nation, or just the street you live on, by using human-made speech/literature that goes against what the people want is humanly impossible, because anyone who takes the challenge will fail and not come close to answering it. And since it is clearly humanly impossible to use human-made speech/literature to achieve the act, then that means that the Qur'an that Muhammad used to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation was not the invention of any human/s, but from one who has greater power and authority than humans, and that is Allah.
     
  23. Message to Garcia

    Message to Garcia New Member

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    I'm pretty sure Shiites would argue the illiterate part of your statement.
     
  24. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I have read the book. There is no way to be 100% certain that the whole Qur'an is the word of God.

    The flavor of a McDonalds Hamburger come from a food lab - chemicals added to the food to trick your taste buds. They could put those chemicals on a piece of cow dung and it woulds still taste great to you.

    Surely "the Devil", or perhaps another God, could appear to be anything it wanted. There is no way to be 100% sure that some God is not playing a trick.

    One can not be 100% sure that the God(s) (according to Genesis there were more than one involved in the creation of humans) were not just conducting an experiment and have since moved on, leaving us to our own devices.

    One can not be 100% sure that the Qur'an is not a human invention.
     
  25. Mehmet

    Mehmet New Member

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    the certitude in science is 95%.
    they accept it as a "floating" fact.
    and they base theories on it.

    but you want to be 100% sure?
    then why the test of faith?
    why self improvement of soul?
    just pop us in the heaven and let us be good people.

    we'll all be sure when we move on to the next phase.
    the thing is to get there in this life.

    in the qur'an it is called yaqeen.
    look that up. you might enjoy it.
    it roughly means "certainty or doubtless conviction".

    there is one deity, it is Allah.
    there is no other gods.

    you are talking about whispers of sheitan (waswas).
    if you were a muslim you would know what this is.

    it is a constant fight.
    in every decision we make, on the path of mastering our ego.
    choosing between good and evil.

    shaytan and his minions are "whisperers", who whisper into
    the hearts of men and women, urging them to commit sin.
    this is where the desire to sin comes from, according to islam.

    the qurʾan provides a supplication for mankind, aimed at fighting
    the tempting of ash-shaytan and his minions.

    but since you are out of the room,
    it's just another room to you.
     
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