Christian printer sued after refusing to print same-sex civil union invitations

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by sec, Nov 24, 2015.

  1. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Where was the ability to have religion infringed? Or is religion now only free if you can force it on others?
     
  2. Think for myself

    Think for myself Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, does it not then demonstrate that bigotry towards homosexuals is not a Christian tenet, but rather folks simply use their religious beliefs as an excuse to further their own hatred and bigotry in the name of Jesus?

    I do apologize for.pointing out the holes in the "I'm a Chrisitan so I hate gays" argument.

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    Please point to where the bible states gays can not marry.

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    Why do Chrisitans object to same sex marriage? Jesus never told folks to be bigots.
     
  3. Troianii

    Troianii Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    There's a world of difference between being insulted and feeling insulted, or offended.

    Wait, did the business use a derogatory term? I thought they wrote, "Dear Pablo, we cannot do this job, to print this invitation goes against our values, take care and best regards." That's hardly equivalent to saying, "we don't serve gimps".

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    There are legal justifications for prohibiting certain religious exercises, but none of them would preclude free exercise just because it hurts someone's feelings.

    Look at the other side of the card - you're apparently OK with running roughshod over people's first amendment rights because you don't like what they're doing, since it hurts someone's feelings? ^_-
     
  4. Troianii

    Troianii Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Wow, that's really stretching the canvas - over a giant strawman. Don't you think you could enjoy a rationale discussion without that kind of editorializing?

    No, it doesn't demonstrate diddly. People disagree about interpretation of the Bible - and people disagree about interpretations of the Constitution. Your entire point depends on the disagreement being an illegitimate one - the simple fact that people interpret it differently doesn't prove that the side YOU disagree with is illegitimate.
     
  5. bois darc chunk

    bois darc chunk Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Since this incident happened in Chile, I'm not sure you can argue American Constitutional rights, unless the Chilean Constitution mirrors the American one. I'll freely admit I know little of the Chilean Constitution, so they may be similar, but I would imagine they are worded differently, since each country speaks different languages. Small wording difference can make a large difference when it comes to courts.
     
  6. AmericanNationalist

    AmericanNationalist Well-Known Member

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    You and I have completely different definitions of bigotry. Let's use an example: You're a vegetarian, I'm a meat-eater. You will NEVER eat meat and likewise, there's only a few vegetables I'll ever eat. Does that mean I should dislike you or mistreat you in anyway? No, but please don't invite me for dinner because the chances are I won't be able to eat it :D.

    Likewise, here. If a christian pastor doesn't want to marry an LBGT Couple, if someone doesn't wanna bake a cake or whatever. It's not a physical harm to you. And no, you're not even emotionally distressed and if you are: Get help. Seriously.

    It's a choice, a choice that should be allowed if those on their high horses about our so-called "secularism" want to take it seriously. If you want to take it seriously, you have to acknowledge the facts that some people don't like it, don't condemn it and don't want to see it(or support it.)

    Protect the LBGT Community from being assaulted, etc? Sure, they're no different from any other person. But on that same account, just as they are no different they can easily be refused a service for a myriad of reasons, including flat out not being interested in serving the person.

    And as has been pointed out before: If the LBGT couple in question didn't reference to their sexuality, chances are they get the cake, etc. They just might have to decorate it themselves. Oh WOW, what a big inconvenience!(Sarcasm alert here)
     
  7. maat

    maat Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Which post did I say I was unable to change my attractions in the way you could?

    Also, the bible says you should pluck your eye out if it causes you to sin. Do you take that scripture to mean that literally as well?
     
  8. Think for myself

    Think for myself Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Sorry, but it appears that the Christ myth is being used to promote hatred and bigotry. These allegedly Christian bakers have no problem selling cakes to divorces, masturbators, and folks eating shellfish.

    Why do Christians then use their beliefs to further hatred?
     
  9. LeeroyHim

    LeeroyHim Banned

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    There is no bigotry, iuntil they actually find a factual, consensus, undeniable link showing anyone int he LGBT, despite 3 of those letters contradicting themselves, are actually outside their control and is indeed a NORMAL birth related issue, I think all discrimination at all treating it like an everyday things is perfectly acceptable, and besides, most of the descrimination is from them anyway, but of course, you have to look for those articles, CNN and MSNBC will barely ever if at all show those stories because everyone in the LGBT are fairies. Wait that didint come out right but you get the point.

    I mean look at this case, who cares. This isnt even a real issue.
     
  10. Think for myself

    Think for myself Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Apparently it is real to some Chrisitans, who feel the need to cite their religion as an excuse to hate.
     
  11. LeeroyHim

    LeeroyHim Banned

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    Depends on how they did it. Usually i can see what your saying, but in this case it looks like they are in the right of way, this is the only category they have turned down for a variety of services, and the partner company let them do it, unassumingly until now, which is strange and will be brought up, which will likely result in this case going nowhere unless I missed a fact somewhere that would incriminate them.

    Now that other story earlier yes.
     
  12. Think for myself

    Think for myself Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    They are in the "right"? Where does their book of myths and cables say that there shall be no same sex marriages?
     
  13. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    Last I checked people had a 1st Amendment right to express their religion, and using the Almighty State's violence to force (at gun point) someone's labor to print off wedding invitations are not mentioned.

    Interesting.
     
  14. LeeroyHim

    LeeroyHim Banned

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    First of all the book actually does say that in multiple ways,

    Second, that is not relevant to our discussion because I never brought it up.

    They are in the right of way because they, and the parent by extension, had done this before in multiple categories with multiple people with no suit, and they likely have legal papers surrounding that. Why should because on one category with one individual or group,. randomly have the ability, to shake the whole thing up, it doesnt make sense and wont hold in court.

    From what I am reading it seems to be that you are implying because this one category is gay, that they should somehow get a kickback when others in the same and different categories they have turned down, have not gotten a kickback, and this also includes individuals they just did not like. So the question is now, is it discrimination. Is it enough for a suit. The answer is likely no.

    This is similar to the comparison of Corporate vs. Franchise. Where in this case you are arguing the the middle, when this is clearly franchise.

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    If there was a gun then this is even worse.
     
  15. Think for myself

    Think for myself Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    So where in Christian doctrine is support for this bigotry?
     
  16. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You said:
    Indicating your attractions are the outcome of your conscious decisions. I am unable to change the gender of my attractions. If you are able to switch then you are a bisexual.
    You also should be teaching classes on choosing arousal, I know a few straight women that would love to make better choices on who they "choose to be attracted to".

    I do not defend the bible, if you use the bible to demand others adhere to your archaic views then yes - you should follow all verses to the letter. Or do you command of others what you yourself cannot do.

    Typical
     
  17. btthegreat

    btthegreat Well-Known Member

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    It is a set-up in the same sense that black men and women looked for segregated lunch counters to have sit-ins. There has always been very easy ways for businesses to avoid being targeted by civil rights protesters .

    As for the definition of homophobia. I have already quoted a variety of reputable dictionaries, both traditional and online in two other threads. Homophobia means either of fear of, or antipathy towards, or showing animus against homosexuals or homosexuality and that has been the way the word has been used since the 1970s. Sec, you don't get to define what words mean in your own little bubble-world and you don't get to tell professional lexicographers who write for dictionaries that they 'got it wrong' when they did, because modern usage reflects a broader meaning the Latin or Greek root prefix suggests.

    I don't know if the printers are homophobes. I usually require a broader and more consistent pattern of behavior, than one issue or one incident provides, on which to judge. You don't have to be a homophobe, to contribute to the systemic homophobia in a given community. you don't have to be a racist to support discriminatory or racist policies. You can just be stupid or ignorant.
     
  18. Wolverine

    Wolverine New Member Past Donor

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    There is a gun.

    1. Printers refuse.
    2. State sends police to enforce the "law".
    3. Printers resist with equal force.
    4. Printers are murdered in a hail of bullets.
     
  19. LeeroyHim

    LeeroyHim Banned

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    I am tired of this habit ont his forum of guys never looking up the opposing view of their bias and it literally takes the exact time of 5 seconds with google or another search engine to find this answer immediately with QUOTE.
     
  20. Think for myself

    Think for myself Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Well, I googled it and there appears to be nothing in the bible about not baking for gay folks.
     
  21. LeeroyHim

    LeeroyHim Banned

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    You didnt say that, now your backtracking.
     
  22. Think for myself

    Think for myself Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Not really. Would you care to point it out?
     
  23. FreedomSeeker

    FreedomSeeker Well-Known Member

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    If only Jesus was actually real, and not just a figment of people's imagination. If only. The all-loving, all-caring, all-powerful carpenter turned living-dead, if he was actually real, would have used his mutant-X-men ninja super-powers to educate people that the book about him was immoral for saying to kill innocent people (gays) in multiple places. If I had those comic-book powers that they claim Jesus has, then I of course would educate people that the Bible was immoral and got death to gays completely wrong......so I'm either more moral than Jesus, or he doesn't exist.

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    Correct - it does not say to not bake for them, it just says to kill them, in multiple places. So anybody who claims religious affiliation to said book is immoral.
     
  24. sec

    sec Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for finally admitting that faith in Christ is on the same realm as faith that one is born wanting gay sex.

    it's faith. You have reached an epipheny

    oops, you actually didn't realize that you were agreeing with me, did you?

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    umm, no, it's not the same as a black person

    I cannot choose to be a white male but I sure as heck can stick jimmy where he was never meant to be stuck
     
  25. cd8ed

    cd8ed Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I don't disagree with you on everything, but we diverge on the issue of sexual orentation being a chosen trait. You are basing your views on your belief with no basis or foundation, I am basing my views on the medical community and personal experiences.

    You can attempt to pull a "gotcha" by manipulating my statements while simultaneously ignoring the majority of the post. You are the one that thinks the law should make exception for a group that has chosen their religious affiliation against a group based on their orentation that, science agrees, did not choose.

    So no, I did not realize I was agreeing with you - because I wasn't. Not that you have the intellectual fortitude to acknowledge this. By all means though, continue to pat yourself on the back for making yet another false claim.
     
    Think for myself likes this.

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