Eid al Adha - Oct. 15 - Police Should Be Alert.>>>MOD EDIT<<<

You are absolutely WRONG. And your ignorance of the law could land you in jail. Since you don't have a location of where you live, I can't access the specific laws there , but animal cruelty laws are quite alike all across America. So what I'll do is show you the law here in Florida as a typical example >>

"The misdemeanor violation of animal cruelty (section 828.12) occurs when a person unnecessarily overloads, overdrives, torments, deprives of necessary sustenance or shelter, or unnecessarily mutilates, or kills any animal, "

"A person who intentionally commits an act to any animal which results in the cruel death, or excessive or repeated infliction of unnecessary pain or suffering is guilty of a felony of the third degree"

So if you killed your animal (or anyone else's), in a "quick and relatively painless" way, as you described, you could escape the 5 years imprisonment in a state prison from a 3rd degree felony, but you won't escape the one year in a county jail, from just killing the animal, even if you did it humanely. In addition, time in county jails can increase quickly and greatly depending on how you act while you're there, and how you get along with fellow inmates and guards.

And from the way you're talking, somebody needs to get your animal away from you in a hurry.

PS - here's one more example (from Idaho) >> Idaho Statute 25-3501 - 3521

"Every person who is cruel to any animal, and whoever having the charge or custody of any animal, subjects any animal to cruelty is guilty of a misdemeanor. "Animal" means any vertebrate member of the animal kingdom, except humans. "Cruelty" is defined as the intentional and malicious infliction of pain, physical suffering, injury or death upon an animal as well as the negligent deprivation of necessary sustenance, among other things."

 

NO, that is NOT a summary of Florida's animal cruelty laws at all. What you posted (since you've got this food ruse notion) pertains to slaughterhouses (which has nothing to do with Eid al Adha). No police I know of are stupid enough to be hoodwinked by this goofy food ploy. They all correctly see it as individual people, not connected with any slaughterhouse, but just acting on their own, and thereby subject to the animal cruelty laws as I specified in Post # 26. Which one was my neighbor violating ? i just told you in the previous post (and even wrote out the statute >> Florida statute 828.12. Here's a link to the animal cruelty laws all across America. Like the Florida and Idaho examples, you'll find them all quite similar.

http://www.aspca.org/fight-cruelty/advocacy-center/state-animal-cruelty-laws

(PS - this is another reason why we need more street cameras - to catch guys who think like this)

 

I didn't say the seller would be breaking the law selling to the Muslims intending to kill the animal for ritual. However, if the police suspect that the seller KNOWINGLY sold the animal to be killed (not for food), I would imagine he could possibly be arrested as an accomplice. As for a law that says that animals can only be killed if they are turned into food, I don't know if there's one that says that either, but there sure are laws against killing animals (828.12 in Florida)

I couldn't disagree more. Although I don't condone killing animals for ANY reason, I see killing them for food to be marginally moral, especially if the person has little choice in the matter (ex. people who hunted and fished during the 1930's depression to sustain themselves). On the other hand, I see hunting (and fishing, which I quit doing 5 years ago) for sport and fun to be grossly immoral and tantamount to murder. Killing for a religion (or an ideology posing as one, like Islam) is equally improper, and goes against the idea of religion, which generally carries with it a code of ethics. Killing animals (except in self-defense) is generally immoral. As for 90% of Americans, I do what I see to be right, and I wouldn't care if it was 99.9 % of them.

I didn't say the seller would be breaking the law selling to the Muslims intending to kill the animal for ritual. As for a law that says that animals can only be killed if they are turned into food, I don't know if there's one that says that either, but there sure are laws against killing animals (828.12 in Florida)

I couldn't disagree more. Although I don't condone killing animals for ANY reason, I see killing them for food to be marginally moral, especially if the person has little choice in the matter (ex. people who hunted and fished during the 1930's depression to sustain themselves). On the other hand, I see hunting (and fishing, which I quit doing 5 years ago) for sport and fun to be grossly immoral and tantamount to murder. Killing for a religion (or an ideology posing as one, like Islam) is equally improper, and goes against the idea of religion, which generally carries with it a code of ethics. Killing animals (except in self-defense) is generally immoral. As for 90% of Americans, I do what I see to be right, and I wouldn't care if it was 99.9 % of them.

 

Yeah ? Well this isn't "early". This is 2013 (with 2013 laws in place).

 

http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusfl828_01_29.htm

Nowhere does that statute say it pertains to slaughterhouses- it pertains to any slaughter of livestock. Which is explained in 828.23

(4) "Slaughterer" means any person other than a licensed veterinarian, or anemployee of a humane society or animal control agency, who kills livestock.

(5) "Livestock" means cattle, calves, sheep, swine, horses, mules, goats, ostriches, rheas, emus, and any other domestic animal that can or may be used in the preparation of animal products. For the purposes of ss. 828.22-- 828.26, "livestock" does not include poultry and aquatic species.

(6) "Humane method" means:

(6) "Humane method" means:

(a) A method whereby the animal is rapidly and effectively rendered insensitive to pain by electrical or chemical means or by a penetrating captive bolt or gunshot with appropriate caliber and placement; or

(b) A method in accordance with ritual requirements of any religious faith whereby the animal suffers loss of consciousness by anemia of the brain caused by the simultaneous and instantaneous severance of the carotid arteries with a sharp instrument.

And I believe that is exactly the method used for Halal slaughter.

Now if your "Muslim" neighbors were hitting their goat with a hammer until dead, or roasting it live over an open fire- then it would not be a ritual slaughter as provided for by Florida law.

And if they were killing chickens- well then that might not apply either.

But looking at Florida's anti-cruelty laws, I don't think anyone can legally kill a chicken in Florida. Or any animal other than livestock:

828.12 A person who unnecessarily overloads, overdrives, torments, deprives of necessary sustenance or shelter, or unnecessarily mutilates, or kills any animal,

I think technically anyone who steps on a cockroach is in violation- unless 828.12 is read to mean killing an animal cruelly.

 

Reading comprehension a bit off today ? Re-read post # 26. The first part mentions a misdemeanor for killing any animal. The second part mentions a 3rd degree felony for doing it cruelly. Got it ?

How a judge wants to interpret what is or isn't cruel is pretty much up to him (or her). Best thing is treat the animals gently and nicely. Most judges have dogs or cats, and tend to be pretty tough on animal abusers (and rightly so).

BTW - the penalty of 1st degree misdemeanor in Florida is just for ONE COUNT. A judge can interpret a case as having MANY counts, and a year in jail added on for each additional count (10 years happens from time to time)

 

Sorry for the mistake then.

I thought you had mentioned somewhere previously in the thread that Muslim officials had stated that their faith never condoned animal sacrifice.

 

Horse hockey. There is this document called the Constitution of the United States of America which states, in effect, that the religious practices of any faith cannot be infringed other than to the extent that they impinge on the right of others to practice their faith. You have blatantly crossed that line.

This would, of course, indicate that the government had utterly discarded the Bill of Rights, and then everyone would have the right to rise up and overthrow the government. I would, of course, even as a non-Muslim, be up there in a minaret with a sniper rifle defending against the kufir, because the kufir who wish harm are the enemy of my country as well.

Nor, per the 1st Amendment, can Islam be outlawed because you people want it outlawed.

The Muslims are at liberty to eat and share their barbequed goats and there is not a thing that you can do about it, nor any reason for people who understand what America is about to let you try.

 

So your interpretation of 828.12 is an absolute prohibition of killing animals in Florida?

How is that working out?

Since 1988, Florida's statewide alligator harvest has been nationally and internationally recognized as a model program for the sustainable use of a natural resource. Each year, alligator management units are established with appropriate harvest quotas to provide recreational opportunities for Floridians and non-residents who are at least 18 years old to take up to 2 alligators per permit. Applicants who are awarded a permit must submit payment for two CITES tags and an Alligator Trapping License, or provide proof of possession of an Alligator Trapping License valid through the end of the alligator harvest season. A Florida hunting license is not required to participate in the statewide alligator hunt.


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http://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/managed/alligator/harvest/

But- and this is where good research pays off- I did find a court case that largely agrees with you. It isn't directly and specifically applicable but it does raise some of the same issues. So your neighbor might possibly be violating your local laws- or even Florida laws- if he is not trained to kill the animals in the approved Halal method, and if he did not intend to eat the animal and if his house is not zoned for properly for slaughter.

Of course the same would apply to anyone killing their own chickens

 

As usual my reading comprehension is fine. Like I said- by your reading- any killing of a cockroach in Florida is a misdemeanor.

http://userwww.sfsu.edu/biella/santeria/doc26.html

This case describes some of the nuance better.

Animal sacrifice also violates Florida Statutes § 828.12, which makes it a criminal violation for one to "unnecessarily" or "cruelly" kill an animal. See Wilkerson v. State, 401 So.2d 1110, 112 (Fla.1981). The Attorney General's opinion notes that the ritual killing of an animal does not constitute a "necessary" killing so as to make the prohibition in § 828.12 against unnecessarily or cruelly killing an animal inapplicable

So it is not any killing of an animal- but the unnecessarily (sic) or cruelly killing of an animal- and the court accepted the Atty Generals opinion.

 

Goes against the idea of religion? Seriously thats just ignorant. The whole Old Testament is filled full of descriptions of exactly how to ritually sacrifice animals- and the Old Testament is the basis of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

I once again applaud you for your convictions- but you can't impose them on the rest of us.

 

"Unnecessarily" is the key word in your Florida statute. Pretty much gives anyone with an animal an out if they humanely put it down. Nearly every animal shelter in Florida would be a criminal organization if your interpretation was correct.

I love your insinuation that I might harm one of my pets, by the way. Vilifying the person you're arguing with is a common defense mechanism, but not particularly good for actually convincing people of your claims.

 

All of this back-and-forth about the Florida statute is moot. There is a provision specificly allowing for halal slaughter.

Find some other basis for calling Eid illegal.

 

The thread has come this far, and no-one has countered with the cruelty of Kosher killing, which is indeed cruel.
Care to tell us that the Constitution is going to just kick out everyone who kills anything in accordance with their religious beliefs?

 

And where was that "somewhere" ?

 

HA HA. And you don't see Islam as impinging on the right of others to practice their faith ? Looks like you're not seeing much. Islam is 100% intolerance. It tolerates one thing Islam. Get it ? Also, Islam is not a religion. It is a very non-religious violent, vile ideology, masquerading as a religion, and you fall for it. And in case you hadn't noticed "this document called the Constitution of the United States of America"[/COLOR] states, in Article 6,Section 2 (the Supremacy Clause) >> "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."

This makes the supremacist ideology of Islam 100% UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

You are very confused. As you state it now, YOU are the enemy of your country. The Bill of Rights has nothing to do with Islam, other than the fact that no ideology in American history has ever been a worse violator of it than Islam. And if you are a supporter of Islam,as you appear to be, then you are in violation of the Constitution (Article 6, Section 2), US Codes 2384 & 2385, and numerous laws of the United States, which the criminal ideology of Islam espouses (murder, rape, sex discrimination, wife-beating, slavery, pedophilia, torture/mutilation, discrimination against gays, religious discrimination, etc. etc.)

You have a ridiculous conception of the 1st Amendment. First of all, NOTHING trumps the Constitution's Supremacy Clause. NOTHING (including the 1st Amendment, and every other amendment). You need to get that straight. Secondly, as for the 1st Amendment, it really is one of the weakest parts of the Constitution (While the Supremacy Clause is the strongest). The 1st Amendment is really nothing more than a general guideline as evidenced by the numerous exceptions to it (ex. free speech has > "fighting words", inciting a riot, slander, libel, perjury, sedition, treason, yelling fire in a crowded theater, obscenity laws, etc) - all illegal forms of speech. Likewise, freedom of religion can't trump the Supremacy Clause. If some people declared themselves a religion, and said their rituals were going around and shooting horses and setting forest fires, do you think they would be allowed to do those illegal acts under the guise of freedom of religion ? Of course they wouldn't, but some 1st Amendment FANATICS believe they should. It's really a bit funny to look at 1st Amendment fanatics strutting their feathers, while thinking that everything in America has to defer to the 1st Amendment.

Boy, are you ever mixed up. Eid al Adha has nothing to do with eating. And police departments all over this country will not only "try" to enforce their states' animal cruelty laws, they will DO IT, and they have been doing it, and will continue to, "and there is not a thing that you can do about it."

In the state of Washington, WA ST 16.52.205 and WA ST 16.52.207 are the primary anti-cruelty provisions that categorize cruelty in either the first or second degree. A person is guilty of animal cruelty in the first degree (a class C felony) when he or she intentionally inflicts substantial pain on, causes physical injury to, or kills an animal by a means causing undue suffering, or forces a minor to inflict unnecessary pain, injury, or death on an animal.

In Florida, the law is the same >> "The misdemeanor violation of animal cruelty (section 828.12) occurs when a person unnecessarily overloads, overdrives, torments, deprives of necessary sustenance or shelter, or unnecessarily mutilates, or kills any animal, or carries in or upon any vehicle, any animal in a cruel or inhumane manner. A person who intentionally commits an act to any animal which results in the cruel death, or excessive or repeated infliction of unnecessary pain or suffering is guilty of a felony of the third degree."

 

"Interpretation". One of the Islamapologist's favorite talking point words. Nothing to interpret. The law says "or kills any animal".

Halal has nothing to do with it. If he kills the animal, he violates 828.12, period.

 

1. All killing of any animal is cruel.

2. The only time killing an animal would not be cruel, and not be unnecessarily (ie. it would be necessary) would be if the animal was capable of harming you, and was attacking you, and you acted in self-defense.

3. This makes Eid al Adha killing, illegal under 828.12, same as statutes in other states all across America.

 

Seriously- do you really believe that if you step on a cockroach in Florida you have just violated 828.12?

I provided the court case which half way supports your cockamamie thesis- and that explains 828.12.

But what the heck- you don't believe the Old Testament is part of the Bible either.

 

So you really think that any time any animal is killed in the United States that is illegal- unless that goat or cow or bunny rabbit was threaening you?

Seriously?

You better start reporting slaugherhouses and hunters to the authorities- I already posted about Florida's annual alligator hunt- forget about your Florida Muslim's- you have thousands of Floridans out killing alligators every year.

 

As I have pointed out dozens of times before, this has been refuted by both the courts and the executive branch- from Thomas Jefferson to the present.

Islam is a religion protected by the First Amendment.

Denying that is both ignorance of history and ignorance of the Constitution.

 

A "basis" of something is not the same as that something. Judaism is not Christianity, The Old Testament is not the New Testament. The 1951 Brooklyn Dodgers are not the 2013 Los Angeles Dodgers. Got a good giggle out of this though. Thanks, for that.

As for my convictions, they aren't being imposed. It is THE LAW that is being imposed (as well as the common morality that supported and created that law).

 

LOL....thanks for clearing that up.

Along with how animal sacrifice can't be part of any religion.

You know some day you might want to read the Old Testament. I mean just to find out what it says.

 

Have you ever studied law ? There are thousands of examples like your cockroach example. And these examples fly in and out of courtrooms every day, didn't you know ? Usually, judges and juries exercise common sense in dealing with them. Sometimes they don't. And I don't have any "cockamamie thesis", I have the LAW, which you criminally choose to ignore and sidestep, and try (unsuccessfully) to talk your way around. But what the heck. If you kill an animal which a DA and judge chooses to prosecute you for,... well,... not my problem.

 

You can point out anything you like until your face turns every color in the rainbow. What you can't do is deny that the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, including above Islam, thereby defining Islam as 100% unconstitutional (As I have pointed out dozens of times before)

As I (and thousands of people in my previously supplied links) also have pointed out dozens of times before, Islam is NOT a religion, and is unconstitutional by the Supremacy Clause (Article 6, Section 2). Denying that is both ignorance of history and ignorance of the Constitution. Note: the 1st Amendment has numerous exceptions. The Supremacy Clause has NONE.