GERMANY JOINS CHORUS CASTING DOUBT ON TRUMP ADMINISTRATION CLAIM THAT IRAN WAS BEHIND ATTACK ON OIL

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by Sobo, Jun 25, 2019.

  1. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Well-Known Member

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    Make that “will not”

    If you dont understand why the international powers including the US were arrayed against iran in negotiating then you are beyond hope and I wont waste my time humoring you
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  2. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Good that you do not deny the obvious - but what is your point then. The deal was the deal - a deal made by all the permanent members of the security council and Germany who had some status position at the time.

    Either we have rules - or we don't. Global chaos is not a desirable thing. This means that when you sign on to the various international charters that we signed up for - you don't just disregard them - while turning around and expecting all other nations to continue to follow them.

    You seem to think this is some big joke - ha ha .. we broke the deal "F U" to the other nations in the world - without any consideration for the consequences - both long and short term - consequences for which we are already paying the price - and things are just getting started. It is not just the "blink of an eye" ... not even close. This is mindless denial of reality.
     
  3. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Well-Known Member

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    The deal was never sealed by the US senate because it was a bad deal for America

    and even the euros if they had sense enough to see it
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  4. Ethereal

    Ethereal Well-Known Member

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    Pompeo is such an embarrassment and a clown.
     
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  5. JessCurious

    JessCurious Well-Known Member

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    No one has yet explained why Trump called off the air strike if he wants war. And no one has explained why if Trump DOESN'T want war, why he would stage the attacks on the oil tankers. Iran
    has attacked tankers in the past. It has a history of using proxies to attack its enemies (such as the rocket attacks on Saudi Arabia). And, it should be noted, since Iran was caught removing the
    limpet mine from the tanker, there have been no more mine attacks.
     
  6. Sobo

    Sobo Well-Known Member

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    Because Trump chickened out, he is weak.

    We Germans know that. He pushed all kind of threats against us. We noticed its just empty threats. He always chickens out, when we go into confrontation.
     
  7. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Doesn't matter - The Senate does not have to ratify UN security council decisions. We as a nation have agreed to abide by UN security council resolutions - regardless of whether or not we happened to agree. We have veto - but we are also bound to abide by the veto of the another permanent member. Your argument is pure nonsense. The fact of the matter is that we did not veto - we were party to the deal and agreed to the deal - end of discussion.

    Now if a later administration wants to back out of the deal - this is bad- especially given some of the absurd nonsense rationalization coming out of the Trump administration. What part of - we either abide by the rules of the international body that we have agreed to abide by -or we throw out the rule book. What part of this do you not understand.

    But - OK - so we want to back out of the deal that the past administration made and not sell things to Iran - without agreement by the permanent members - fine. That is one thing. It is a whole other kettle of fish to unilaterally sanction Iran - and then mess with the sovereignty of the other member nations by forcing these other nations to also abide by these sanctions by threatening them with the "Nuclear Option" - threatening to block a nations backs out of the system of international payments - a system that uses the US Dollar as the reserve currency - something these other nations "ALLOWED" us to have .. something we are privileged to have - something that benefits us greatly, but a privilege that can be revoked at any time should the world desire.

    This is not just throwing out one page in the rule book - this is throwing out the whole book - and then freaking out - and lashing out at our closest allies for choosing to abide by the deal that we agreed to.

    What does this have to do with the senate ?? The senate did not agree to messing with the sovereignty of our closest allies - Since when ? On the contrary - there were many on the Red side of the Senate that strongly warned against backing out of the deal - never mind messing with the sovereignty of our allies after the fact - including the majority of Trumps own advisers. Not everyone in the GOP is a raging maniac.

    You are wallowing in a deep pit of denial - grasping at the most absurd of straws to try and maintain the position that Trump turds smell like fresh flowers.

    Backing out of the deal was a not good for many reasons - reasons discussed previously for which you have had no valid response. This was a blunder on the geopolitical chessboard but a small one in the grand scheme of things. The way we backed out of it - as in not including the other nations or making any rational attempts to salvage or change the deal - this was a bigger blunder - but not good but not like dropping your queen.

    Messing with the sovereignty of our allies is a completely different level of blunder .. a massive blunder on the geopolitical chessboard - and the position has gotten really ugly.

    In the past we have had good success marginalizing Russia out of a good portion of the world community. The same is true - albeit on to a lesser degree with China. This success has been almost solely due to having the Europe as a willing accomplice. While China now has an economy that is getting close to the size of the US - and slightly larger with respect to purchasing power -- The US and Europe together rule - as this accounts for near half the worlds purchasing power. This union - due to its size also then has the effect of enticing other nations to our side - the collective group then being an overwhelming force.

    Guess what champ !? That union is broken - at least for the time - and the longer we wait to try and put Humpty back together - the harder it will be.

    Instead of being this massive collective US, EU, India, Japan, Korea, Canada, Mexico, Australia - and numerous others such as Turkey Saudi Arabia who want to tag along - everyone wants to be part of the big club -

    We have the EU giving us the middle finger - India, Turkey, Iraq and who knows who is next - El Saud is tettering as are many other gulf nations - some who have already defected. We go from being a block that controls 70% of the worlds economic activity - to just another face in the crowd

    Whats more is that we no longer have the ability to marginalize Russia and China. While Trump is going around trying to club our allies into submission - Russia and China are doing deals.
     
  8. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Well-Known Member

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    You said it

    We agree to abide by security council decisions

    Meaning its our choice to do so

    But under American law a treaty signed by the executive branch is not binding till its approved by 2/3 of the senate

    And that didnt happen
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  9. Sobo

    Sobo Well-Known Member

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    We get it, as our president Steinmeier said, a treaty with USA is not worth the paper its written on.
     
  10. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe clueless euros should stop bloviating about American law that you obviously dont understand

    Try listening more
     
  11. Sobo

    Sobo Well-Known Member

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    You think you are smarter than we are?= How comes we were right in evry single development in the middle east?

    While you preached democracy for Syria and Iraq, we said it will collapse into chaos. Same about Libya. It appears we are far better informed than your officials.

    Our former BND president Maaen said, when he enounters american secret service leading officials, he often believed they live in a fantasy world.
     
  12. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes and I agree with your assertion backing out is our choice. That we backed out of the deal was not the main point being made in the post however - and I have stressed this point numerous times now and you completely avoid addressing this point like some "thought stopping" response has been triggered - akin to that of a highly indoctrinated religious adherent when they come across information that conflicts with religious belief.

    They try to avoid thinking about the "bad thought" due to the unconscious fear response - the fear that thinking the bad thought may lead them down the path to the most horrible thing the mind can imagine - horrific torture in the afterlife - not just for a few days - but for eternity.

    Since we are not discussing religion - what is your excuse ?
     
  13. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Well-Known Member

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    Technically obama and hillary represented the parts of America that elected them

    Most trump supporters were as opposed to obama policy in the region as you are

    But we dont hate America nearly as much as you do
     
  14. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Well-Known Member

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    The day the Berlin wall came down the euros didnt need us anymore and the seeds of breakup were planted

    We have been drifting apart for a long time

    If we let obama trash the Constitution by enacting treaties that are not treaties then its another blow against the rule of law
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  15. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Obama exercised the same powers his predecessors did, and they're obviously legal powers. You don't get to claim otherwise just because you have an unreasoning hatred for Obama.
     
  16. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Well-Known Member

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    Uh, no

    Obama could not get a binding treaty through the senate

    He expected that whether democrat or repub, the next prez would be a swamp rat like himself

    But surprisingly the scheme failed when donald trump won the white house
     
  17. Giftedone

    Giftedone Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    No idea what "treaty" you are referring to - the UN security council did not make a treaty with Iran nor did the US. Its like you are rummaging around through the kitchen utensils looking for a walnut cracker for someone - but you know you do not have a walnut cracker .. and so you pull out different utensils hoping they will fit the bill - but they don't. Bringing up Obama - Constitution- Rule of Law also does not fit.

    If you wish to talk about Obama's trashing of the rule of law, Constitution, and founding principles - and how the "civil rights activist" did a complete 180 on everything he claimed previously to have stood for - we can do this. This however has nothing to do with the Trump admin messing with the sovereignty of our allies.

    The one comment you do give that kind of addresses the issue at hand - is a non comment. "we have been drifting apart" ?? What does this even mean with respect to Trump going out and kicking our allies in the teeth. "Drifting apart" - which is not true with respect to many things - but even if it were this does not justify messing with their sovereignty.

    There is a difference between two friends drifting apart in some respects over time - going down separate paths and so on - but still talking once in awhile and cooperating in the community league and what have you - and one of the two pro-actively going after the other and messing with their livelihood. The latter is called "burning bridges" - not "drifting apart". The latter has consequences that are far greater than the first - and we are already seeing these consequences.

    I realize that you have this idea in your head that we are some Island in the middle of the ocean populated by pygmies who are not affected by the activities pygmies on some other Island 2000 miles away. This is simply not the case.

    That said - you are not alone in this mindset - it is actually quite common. It is exactly this type of flawed analysis of the geopolitical chessboard - that in large part is responsible for the bad moves "blunders" being made.

    Its like the pygmies in the previous analogy still living in the same mindset after the Spanish showed up. We used to be the only economic game in town for the most part. Our economic hegemony was so great that what the pygmies were doing in some other nation, or what we did to them was of little consequence. Making decisions on this basis after the Spanish showed up - was a big blunder - and the Spanish have showed up. We are no longer the only game in town and what these other nations are doing matters.
     
  18. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    As if the Congressional GOP ever would have signed onto a treaty with Iran, no matter how good it was.

    The dumbass in the White House now should have gone back to the negotiating table with Iran if he didn't like it, not withdrawn us from it for no good reason and made the situation at least as bad as it was before. He might have actually accomplished something had he not been a complete imbecile.
     
  19. gnoib

    gnoib Active Member

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    How can anybody trust the US. One government signs a treaty and come elections a new government shows up and says forget it.

    Why should Nations sit down with the US, spend the time and money and work out deals.

    Why should Asian countries, or Pacific countries, ever again sit down with the US, for how many years, to cut a trade deal.
    Elections, new government and all the effort down the drain. Millions wasted, man hours and money.
    Same for the deal with the EU, a complete waste of time and money for the EU.

    Same for the Iran deal, why would anybody even think about making a deal with the US involved, even if the deal gets ratified by the UN.

    The US is not a rliable partner any more and that will hurt it in the long run.
     
  20. FreshAir

    FreshAir Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    sadly Trump has done harm in America being Trusted, I am hoping most of the world see it as it is... a fluke

    but if Trump wins in 2020, they may start to reconsider
     
  21. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Well-Known Member

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    I agree that the worlds economy has grown relative to the US and our former friends are doing much better now

    Another reason the euros are feeling more independent

    Plus there is the rise of china to contend with

    And yes, many Americans have not been sufficently humbled yet by the new reality

    We dont see the true threat of china either in America or europe

    And when I say « europe » I really mean germany which seems about ready to declare a 4th reich as leader of the new europe

    So, the germans want iran to have nukes and that means expect the worst in the middle east because of that decision
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
  22. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Well-Known Member

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    Thats no excuse for going around congress
     
  23. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Well-Known Member

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    It was not a treaty since the senate never approved it
     
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  24. Nonnie

    Nonnie Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yup, it was just an agreement, a one not very well thought out.
     
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  25. Robert E Allen

    Robert E Allen Well-Known Member

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    On top of that where is it written that all treatys have to be bad for America?
     
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