Now we will have to define what the Muslim faith is. Btw, when you say Sufis welcome gays, do you mean all Sufis or at least the vast majority of them? And in what way do Sufis welcome gays? Do you mean they welcome them to the Mosque? Do you mean they approve of homosexual practices? Please clarify these points.
Homosexuality is not forbidden in your religion according to many muslims. And they consider themselves to be TRUE muslims
Here are some TRUE muslims Safra Project The Safra Project for women is based in the UK. The Safra Project supports and works on issues relating to predjudice LGBTQ Muslim women. It was founded in October 2001 by Muslim LBT women. The Safra Project’s “ethos is one of inclusiveness and diversity.”[165] GayBombay GayBombay was founded in 1998 as “a self-evolving informal group, a result of like-minded gay people” with the purpose of creating “a safe space” for gays. Its Facebook page allows “around 2300 members of the community to express themselves.” There is a book Gay Bombay: Globalization, Love and (Be)longing in Contemporary India published by SAGE Publications of India in 2008.[166] Muslims for Progressive Values Muslims for Progressive Values is “a faith-based, grassroots, human rights organization that embodies and advocates for the traditional Qur’anic values of social justice and equality for all, for the 21st Century.”[167] MPV has recorded “a lecture series that seeks to dismantle the religious justification for homophobia in Muslim communities.” The lectures can be viewed at MPV Lecture Series. And Sufi's too
Why you asking me? Have you asked all 1.6 billion Muslims their thoughts on the above? If not then you are in no position to speak for all Muslims on the issue. Which does not tell me what harm homosexuality in and of itself causes others. To me the boundary that separates an action form an immoral action is harm. What is the boundary that separates action from immoral action to you and or Islam? Public sex is a possible health issue as fluids can be secreted which may or may not contain infectious diseases thus I oppose public sex no matter the sexual preference of the participants.
None of these groups you listed are Sufis. Do you even know what Sufism is and who Sufis are? The groups you listed are so called "progressive" and "liberal" Muslim groups. In fact, these are homosexuals (gays and lesbians) who happen to be Muslims, and decided to form these groups to represent themselves. You will find that none of these groups have any significant following among mainstream ordinary Muslims. These are fringe groups of homosexuals. Muslims are divided into numerous sects, parties and schools of thought. But all of them are agreed that homosexuality is forbidden in Islam, because that is what the most sacred text of our Religion (the Qur'an) says: "And [We had sent] Lot when he said to his people, "Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds? (80) Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people." (Surah 7:81) And [mention] Lot, when he said to his people, "Do you commit immorality while you are seeing? (54) Do you indeed approach men with desire instead of women? Rather, you are a people behaving ignorantly." (Surah 27:55) Now in light of these clear Verses in the Holy Qur'an, all Muslims since the beginning of Islam until now are agreed that homosexuality is forbidden and an evil thing. If you quote some modern group composed of LGBT Muslims and claim that therefore Islam allows homosexuality, that would be the height of intellectual dishonesty. Islam recognizes continuity, that means the truth of Islam has been continuously present since its founding, it is not possible that a new group should emerge which is upon the truth and all others are wrong if that new group has no continuity from the early days of Islam. This is a fundamental principle of Islam. Another fundamental principle of Islam is that the Qur'an is the literal words of God revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Therefore, to know that homosexuality is forbidden in our Religion is compulsory for every Muslim by necessity. It is one of the fundamentals of the Faith, denial of which constitutes disbelief and exiting from the circle of Islam.
Nope many muslims disagree with you. And I never said they were all Sufi's. I said these groups are true muslims and disagree with you. Many Sufi's do as well and they are true muslims. And the quote on lot is not about homosexuaity
So in essence you agree with me that public expressions of sexuality should be forbidden. If you are willing to go a step further and say that public displays of nudity, and basically all kinds of sexual advertising should be prevented in public then we are basically in agreement about the issue.
"Many" Muslims is an exaggeration. A few fringe groups of so called "modernist progressives" disagree with not only me, but 99% of the entire Muslim community. But the text of the Qur'an is on our side. Islam is not a democracy. The principles of Islam are not determined by what Muslims think. Islam is based on a divinely-revealed Text. The Verses about Lot are clearly condemning homosexuality. I'd be interested to see what kind of hermeneutic acrobatics you will perform to show otherwise. There are also these Hadith: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Lot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.”. the Prophet of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “May Allaah curse the one who does the action of the people of Lot, may Allaah curse the one who does the action of the people of Lot,” three times.
You are entitled to interpret you religious text anyway you wish. Many TRUE muslims disagree with you. The bible says shellfish is an abomination but many TRUE Christians eat lobster. You have an opinion....but you do not get to decide who is a true anything
By the way there are many Sunni that will say you are not a TRUE muslim if you are not sunni. In fact every faction says that. Are they all right....or all wrong? LOL
Actually you're not very educated in religious matters; that much is clear from your remarks. It would be futile to carry on a theological discussion with you.
I have no problem with gays kissing and holding hands in public just as I have no problem with heterosexuals doing the same. How about you?
It's apparent that no one who participated in this thread had anything of substance to argue why homosexuality is a good thing. No one bothered to read the book I cited in the OP and refute the solid arguments presented therein. Therefore I would like to conclude my case. Of course, if anyone brings something of substance I will be obliged to engage with them.
I don't know; it's just my natural instinct to find two men kissing as repulsive. To each his own I guess.
There probably is no god, least of all the insecure narcissistic god of those religions, but in terms of public policy, morality really ought to be defined as infringing upon each other's rights to choose how to live. Christianity requires free will for moral choices to have any meaning, and that seems inherently true, so why would you use a religious text to define public policy anyway? As you said, it is between them and their god. I am not sure what you mean by homosexuality in public. If you mean kissing, no I really don't see how that could possibly harm somebody other than the self-inflicted harm of feeling offended by nothing.
Well, we don't really allow a lot more heterosexuality in public than that anyway so I suppose you do think they should be treated equally under the law.
I don't know how the discussion became a legal discussion. I am discussing the nefarious political agenda of the homosexualist movement.
Well I'm not sure how else you would oppose a political agenda other than through force of law. But not all homosexuals have a nefarious agenda, and so the law should not target homosexuals in general who just want to be with somebody of the same sex.
There are many ways you can oppose a political agenda apart from force of law; for example simple proselytism; educational outreach efforts, distributing literature, organizing events, using social media, etc. The objective is to change people's minds, win their hearts. From the legal angle we simply have no confidence in the system and won't bother to waste our efforts in that arena. Our objective is to create a counter society, a state within a state.
