Hong Kong! Remember Tiananmen Square!

Discussion in 'Asia' started by Starjet, Jul 29, 2019.

  1. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Hmmm. May be because America is semi-free and China is only semi-semi-semi free.
     
  2. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

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    I don't think China needs any more 'secret jails'. Maybe China will just let the demonstrations run their course while they quietly go about implementing their policy?
     
  3. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    This is exactly the option China is hoping for. But it won't happen. The people in the street need to pay off the money invested into this play. Fake media and revolutionaries need payment. So there will be blood.
     
  4. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    Communist china still plans to drag people across the border from Hong Kong to the mainland for trial

    So the protests continue
     
  5. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    1. There have not been any plans to drag people for trial.
    2. There used to be plans to transport convicted people to mainland.
    3. These plans are already officially 'frozen'.

    But the protests continue just because they are there for a different reason. They are there to make their country robbed.
     
  6. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    It reminds me of a discussion between two slaves about whose master is more of a liberal democrat. Quite interesting discussion. But the most interesting of it was it very fact. The contents of such an idea is debatable from the very beginning.
     
  7. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    The proposed extradition law would allow residents in Hong Kong to be tried in china where the communist courts have a 99% conviction rate
     
  8. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    Are you hearing what you are saying? There is a chance that government of USA restricts freedom of speech. But could you imagine hundreds of thousands of americans (i hope you won't tell that americans are not ready to defend freedom of speech the way Hong Kongers do) go to a protest to prevent such a possibility(!)?

    No. The cause is artificial propaganda in social networks and media. This was ordered and paid for. This is just a blackmail for chinese government in an attempt to steal their money.
     
  9. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    I again repeat that the law was about transportation of an already convicted person. So it didn't interfere with the rights of Hong Kongers to follow the laws just the way they see it. There is no connection of these protests with freedom of speech. The aim is completely different.
     
  10. Woogs

    Woogs Well-Known Member

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    How is this blackmail? What I see is the central government waiting on the local government to either deal with it or ask for help in accordance with the Basic Law (Garrison Law article 14).

    China has the luxury of just letting this happen until then as Hong Kong has become increasingly unimportant (20% of gdp in 1990s vs 2.7% today).

    It's like letting a petulant child throw a temper tantrum until it tires itself out.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  11. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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    No

    The law allowed anyone to be sent to china for trial

    You say it did not interfere with the rights of Hong Kong people

    but they say otherwise
     
  12. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    When it comes to the principle of free speech, the whole world, let alone America, is lost in an abra-cadabra of mystical metaphysics. They can't even name the fundamental foundation that "Freedom of Speech" is built upon, property rights--something the CPC tolerates in the name feeding the masses but theoretically opposes for the sake of the masses. How's that for ass mass backwards?

    So, spare me the fig leaf of nationalism, this is, always has been, and always will be, Liberty vs Tyranny, or as I prefer, Ayn Rand vs the World.

    Ayn Rand: "Freedom of speech means freedom from interference, suppression or punitive action by the government—and nothing else. It does not mean the right to demand the financial support or the material means to express your views at the expense of other men who may not wish to support you. Freedom of speech includes the freedom not to agree, not to listen and not to support one’s own antagonists. A “right” does not include the material implementation of that right by other men; it includes only the freedom to earn that implementation by one’s own effort. Private citizens cannot use physical force or coercion; they cannot censor or suppress anyone’s views or publications. Only the government can do so. And censorship is a concept that pertains only to governmental action--http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/free_speech.html

    Free Speech, Free Minds, Free Markets--Yaron Brook

     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  13. Heartburn

    Heartburn Well-Known Member

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    I don't think China needs any more 'secret jails'. Maybe China will just let the demonstrations run their course while they quietly go about implementing their policy?
    Who ordered it and who is paying for it?
     
  14. Draco

    Draco Well-Known Member

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    It is time to begin the process of completely devesting from China.

    Move all our mfg plants out, it looks like Trump has already spoken with Apple and I would bet they are going to soon leave China.

    Take all mfg of "The West" out of China.

    If they are so confident in their model, let them do it on their own. China is proving to be a hateful, authoritarian regime.

    Almost HALF of the entire freaking city, 2 million people, are out telling us China is horrible. Can you imagine that happening anywhere in The West?

    We see 40 kids protest in Belgium and it makes the paper, this is historic and China is going to be completely screwed by the end of it. With no customers to sell to and no internal consumption mechanism, China will slowly ... probably not that slowly, fade away.

    Thank god
     
  15. Woogs

    Woogs Well-Known Member

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    As I previously posted to you, the US accounts for only 18% of China's exports. The loss of that 18% will hardly cause China to crumble. Also remember that China controls 90% of the world's rare earths. Lose access to that and the US is up sh!it's creek without a paddle.

    I don't see "the West" lining up with Trump on this so it's the US we're talking about here.

    China us already looking beyond it's current model of providing cheap manufacturing. Read up on Made in China 2025.

    You're resorting to hyperbole in describing the protests in Hong Kong. As for the crowd size, while quite large, has been vastly over-estimated as I showed in a post on the previous page.
     
  16. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Good. Then we won’t miss them, they won’t miss us.
     
  17. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  18. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Makes me wonder: Is he an American? Acts like one.


    Cathay Pacific CEO Praised For Not Giving Names Of Staff Joining Hong Kong Protest

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ibtimes.com/cathay-pacific-ceo-praised-not-giving-names-staff-joining-hong-kong-protest-2815487?amp=1

    The only part the story gets wrong is calling it act of self-sacrifice, for truly it was an act of selfish heroism--who wants to look in the mirror and see a cowardly Chinese stooge? Only those with no self-respect and no sense of self-worth. Howard Roark understands.

     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
  19. s002wjh

    s002wjh Well-Known Member

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    well protester turn violent again.

    https://nypost.com/2019/08/21/hong-...th-police-over-response-to-subway-mob-attack/

     
  20. Mac-7

    Mac-7 Banned

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  21. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  22. s002wjh

    s002wjh Well-Known Member

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    revolution with what? if its revolution, they dont stand a chance against the government. sure, you sit on your sofa, not worry about a thing, but 1st sign of revolution meaning violent overthrown of government, beijing gonna send in troop, and these revolutionary will get crushed, seem like you are wishing that kind of thing happen.
     
  23. Starjet

    Starjet Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The choice: Life under the thumb of the CPC or life on your terms, for your happiness, to live free. Oh, I don't know, let's see, "Give me liberty, or give me death!". Still relevant.
     
  24. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    The department of State. The payment is performed through 'support of democracy programs' and such organizations as USAid for instance.
     
  25. Yazverg

    Yazverg Well-Known Member

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    The rights of property make sense for a more efficient use and spread of risks. If companies take the risks, compete at the market and several of them lose - the people still get the benefits of the winners. It is more efficient comparing to the state which also can make mistakes but without a market competition the people lose in the long run and bankrupcy of the state has a poor result on everything.
    But!
    If the companies don't act to the favour of people, if their risks and mistakes are paid at the expense of society and if the transnational monopolies don't do their contribution into the efficient use of resources - their existence makes more harm than use.

    So the primary concept is the people's interests. As for the right of property it can always be neglected to the favour of the first one. For instance if firefighters come to a school on fire and they need to destroy someone' property to save kids from the fire - they MUST do so. Or in case of a war private property may get destroyed by the army (not to allow the enemy to make use of it) or just taken by the state (to solve military operations). The examples tell of the extremes, but in normal life private property is really useful.

    1. Nation and people are different substances. In this very case the protesters represent a political nation of 'Hong Kong'ers. And you do support a separatism and revolutionarism in a competing country just because it MAY bring you some profit. I mean 'you' as an american nation. So I would rather point at the fig leaf of yours, rather than touch it. As for the people I rather mean all the citizens of China. Chinese - are different like russians uniting people of different languages, cultures and appearances.
    2. I agree to your metaphor. But in this war I would stand for the world and against the corrupt bloodthirsty dictators which use Rand's philosophy to create a wall of human meat protecting their money from justy government decisions. It's better for them at the expense of the world. But the world and the people of the world is more a priority for me..
    It's a common question of what is more important than A human life. Those of rand worshippers believe in an indefinete article ignoring that the life of ONE person is obviously LESS valuable than the lives of two or more.



    Interesting. Modern mass media is running at a loss and is naturally running on command of extremely rich people with the interests contradicting the interests of the people. If I was an extremely rich owner of mass media I would definetely require a protection for my information soldiers. This is why the life of journalist weighs more than lives of hundred kids. This is the lonly reason why government is kept far from mass media. This is why in order to come into power a candidate needs to make a deal with the mass media and even if he wins like Trump - his power stays limited just because all these propaganda spreaders are working not to the favour of the voting peoplebut to the interests of those who made a good deal with the owner of these mass media.
    I don't see any freedom in this system. This is a real tyranny. Far more cruel and immoral than all the communists ever having existed in the world's history.
     

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