Huge Protests In Iran Call for IRGC and Regime to Go After They Admit Shooting Down Plane

Agreed.

 

Yeah, that "freely-elected" government apparently isn't free to decide whether US troops should be there or not. Some freedom.

Second, the WMDs in Iraq existed as much as deficit reduction from the GWB tax cuts: Only in your mind.

 

Of course it was an error. Having nothing to do with President Trump.

 

I've already posted that I don't hold the President responsible. However, in my opinion, the shoot-down would probably not have occurred without the preceding drone strikes. I think that's a reasonable conclusion regarding a causual chain of events, without the President assuming any legal liability, which I assume will be Iran's.

 

Again. He aint no terrorist. He thought with the US to remove ISIS, despite that the US in the past supported a WMD war against his nation and his civilians. The US is the biggest sponsor of terrorism.

That would be ISIS. Take a hint, buddy. Iraq doesn't even want the US in Iraq because they didn't kill a terrorist killer, not a terrorist. To be calling him a terrorist is just made up, just like the US made up there was imminent danger. There is zero evidence of that. Just like there aint no evidence that Iraq had WMD's when the US invaded them. That regime in the US is just one massive lying machine, executing people around with no trial.

 

He's a well known terrorist with an extensive history.

I don't see why its so hard for you to understand that just because he "fights ISIS" that he's not a good guy.

Again sounds like you are defending Irans state terrorism.

 

You keep repeating the same fake American news from politicians lol.

Sounds more you support the idea of executing people with no trial, because you trust that politicians are telling the truth.

 

Doubt what? Doubt that the public sees the escalation to war porn in political rhetoric only, coming from the left only? Doubt that the public is empathetic with the Iranian people? Doubt that the world sees the the Ayatollah and his government for the thugocracy it is? Doubt that the public sees Gen Soleimani as a thug? Doubt that the public doubts Pelosi and Schiff as they eulogize Soleimani as a poet, a misunderstood brute, a noble soul, and their claims that people of Iran loved him whilst in the background Iranians are marching in the street being gassed, shot and jailed for screaming "Soleimani is a murderer and Iran's Daesh?"

Good luck with that.

 

Interesting thing happened to me on the way to the forum today, seriously. I was be-bopping along Pearl street in downtown Burlington, VT making tracks in the new snow that had fallen on yesterdays ice. Slipping along, I passed a Meter-maid with her radio up to her bundled head requesting a tow truck to tow a vehicle parked in a handicapped zone, piles of prior tickets under the wiper. On my return from the Post Office, the tow truck, light's flashing was in the travel lane pulling the miscreant's truck from it's illegal spot. Cop car had lights flashing, cop in bright orange directing traffic. I looked to my left when I heard that unique sound of tires sliding on ice, breaks pumping to no avail. The car slammed into rear of the flatbed tow truck with the end of the car carrier platform slicing into the passenger side all the way to the front seat head rest. No one was hurt but had there been a passenger....

So my question, was the Parking enforcement officer at fault for taking away the bad truck? Was the tow truck driver at fault for removing the bad truck? Or was the bad truck to blame because had it not been parking illegally denying the handicapped their space none of this would have happened?

It's pretty simple.

 

Ah...a Zero Mostel fan. Personally, I thought "Fiddler On the Roof" was his better performance. My doubt concerns the willingness of the American people to go to war with Iran, which is what the administration appears to be gearing up to do. Do you disagree?

 

I'm sorry, but the protests are about far more than the negligent downing of Ukraine Air's Flt 725. Search and watch foreign news. Look through the tweeter feeds from the region. This isn't about nor was it precipitated by the downing, it's about Gen Soleimani, the strong arm and brutish enforcer for the Ayatollah and how and what is going to replace him.

 

I am guessing that the police officer and the tow truck were following established procedures for illegally parked vehicles. The owner of the car violated the parking law. The car that crashed into the tow truck probably broke the law by failing to control his/her vehicle according to road conditions. Not sure what analogy you are trying to draw? If it's Trump as the police officer, then it depends upon whether or not he was obeying law. Here's another one: Most prosecutors would refuse to prosecute a criminal case, if the arresting officer failed to notify the defendant of his Miranda rights.

 

You claim Trump is transparent.

But, then you present a justification that is not what he claims. In fact neither he nor his admiistration have been consistent in what they clam motivated this assassination. As of today it is not even slightly clear why he chose to take this action. And, Republican congressmen are upset about that - this isn't some partisan analysis.

How is that "transparency"?

Beyond that, we led a negotiation iwth Iran that had inspetors monitoring their nuclear progress, including with on-site visits. Now, Trump has succeeded in ripping up the last remnants of that deal. And, he has the Iraqi parliament voting for us to leave Iraq.

You can't pitch the end of nuclear inspecitions and the trashing of our multinational approach against Iran as not being "cowed" because of one assassination. Nuclear progress in Iran has been a central concern for YEARS and something Trump has proclaimed as serious as well.

 

Gearing up for war? What kind of war? A "boots on the ground" war for territory? That's not going to happen clandestinely, it will be proceeded by a massive movement of men and materiel. Hundreds of thousands. Marshal where?

Further, as you and I exchanged earlier, there is zero domestic interest in another land war in the Middle East.

Even Further, I feel that Trump wants, above and to the exclusion of all else, want's to reestablish the United States as a world economic leader. A war that drains the economy like Iraq, like Afghanistan etc. etc., will not serve that interest.

 

I agree with you. On returning to our post WW II status as the "world's economic leader," I doubt that's possible. A lot of reasons...worthy of a separate discussion, but for one reason, much of the world holds us responsible for the global recession - daily or unfairly...i.e. we're no longer to be trusted. Another major reason is the support of Sanders by a lot of American youth. Don't think Bernie's necessarily offering anything that will work, but they're tied of waiting for the old ideas to work. IMO, the GOP will have to reject Trump and build anew in order to survive as the responsible conservative political party.

 

Good thoughts.

 

How moving:

 

The LW would rather a repressive Islamofascist dictatorship rule Iran than see it overthrown with Trump's encouragement, they wouldn't want a statue of Trump erected by a grateful nation, like Eastern Europe and Reagan. When the Iranian people rose up against the Mullahs when Barry was POTUS, all they got was crickets.

 

But Will, you're conflating the nuclear agreement with the decision to take out Soleimani. I don't think Iran's nuclear activities had anything to do with the decision to take out Soleimani.

But on the nuclear issue, in his statement to the country, Trump said, "... we must all work together toward making a deal with Iran that makes the world a safer and more peaceful place. We must also make a deal that allows Iran to thrive and prosper, and take advantage of its enormous untapped potential. Iran can be a great country."

So yes, he did back out of Obama's nuclear deal with Iran, but it is clear that he would be willing to go back to the negotiating table with Iran.

 

I am against Iran negotiating with the US on any nuclear deal and was, in fact, against even the JCPOA as I knew it would turn out to be a fraud. Had said so even at the time and before Trump's election. And even before General Soleimani's assassination, I was with those in Iran (including Iran's Supreme Leader) who were against any negotiations with the US on the nuclear issue (which was going to then try to force Iran to further disarm itself, focusing on Iran's missile capabilities as well).

That said, however, those who pushed Trump (the war party in the US, with connections to the military industrial complex, the pro Israel Lobby and Christian Zionists in America) to take Soleimani (have been pushing him to do so for some time) knew that this act would basically close down any possibility of negotiations between Iran and the US on the nuclear front as well. Even reformists elements within Iran couldn't possibly talk about negotiating with the US under these circumstances. While the accidental shoot down of the Ukrainian plane has slightly emboldened some to again say such nonsense, the fact is that the future of Iran's disputes with the US will be decided by the proxies each will be using to force their way on the other. We will see where that lead.

 

Old habits die hard.

 

Advice from Boris Johnson that I would hope some people here will heed.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1216996131277824000

 

Iran announces arrests over shootdown of Ukrainian jetliner
https://nypost.com/2020/01/14/iran-...ootdown-of-ukrainian-jetliner-special-courts/

They don't say who has been arrested, or why.

Apparently there is to be a long drawn out trial as well.

 

Religiousness is a personal matter.

No one asked the regime to face America. Revolutionary crowd just chanted for independence. Further, the problems are not just financial; who said playing ,let alone inadvertently, against Israelis would have any problems, for example?

Everywhere has Mafia, and good relations is a previllage. But the judicial system should be fair, not biasing this or that, or deciding based on benefit, or worse yet, jailing lawyers, etc.

Well, most people are not political. That is a fact. Most people just live an ordinary life. So it is incorrect to say 80 percent of people root for the govt., especially when the election turnout Is lowering.

 

I don't agree that's conflation. Our relationship with Iran is not explained by any one single event alone.

Iran's expeience with the US is that we renegged on the multi-national agreement in which Iran allowed nuclear inspections. Why would Iran consider another agreement involving Trump as something of value? If America don't stand behind our deals any longer than the next presidential elecion, what do negotiations even mean?

Trump is NOT leading toward negotiations. He's showing NO signs of interest in that.

For example, EU countries ARE working on negotiations with Iran - and Trump isn't even bothering to MENTION that, let alone take part. Remember that the 8 nation deal included provision for subsequent action should Iran not comply. Is Trump leading that effort? Is Trump at least joining that effort?

No, he is not. He's spewing platitudes while other nations are leading.