Pentagon Has ‘Off-World Vehicles Not Made on This Earth’

That is a good case to turn over to debunkers. For a grand fail..

Knapp got to see military reports of UFOs not shutting down ICBMs in Russia but the missiles being turned on to launch against us..but right before they fired the system shut down..

Might have happened in China too.

Robert Hastings has written books about these events.. Yet is there documented evidence? Salad should be trusted but would his revealing what happened get him into trouble with the military? For telling secrets?

Not sure what kind of evidence Hastings used . Anyone know?

I can see why our military would have to deny these events.

 

I don't see any of that as demanding.

Science ALWAYS demands evidence. That is absolutely NOT a ploy.

I have absolutely NO doubt that our military has secrets that have lasted for 70 years. And, many of the possible scenarios would certainly not warrant someone breaking laws to out the military.

For example, the one debunked by my post above would certainly not warrant someone "divulging" the truth.

As for problems targeting, let's remember that the Navy pilots had a hell of a time trying to lock onto the weather ballon. And, the weather balloon had ZERO intelligence. The fact of the matter is that locking onto something is not an open and shut operation. And, it is something that the military tests repeatedly. Military aircraft targeting is something that generates large numbers of reported failures.

I don't understand you comment on attacks by Russia. Obviously, your statement assumes that we would know it was Russian - a statement that we would already know a whole lot about the craft and its intent. Comparing that to a case where we don't know ANY of that makes no sense to me. Our military has command and control that has serious time, training and technology oriented to not making stupid assumptions about unidentified objects.

 

Here is a possible answer to tic toc:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidh...-navy-laser-creates-plasma-ufos/#180bc9dc1074

 

Well, this can't be considered a "great mystery". It's a collection of totally unproven claims concerning all sorts and types of stuff seen and found. A "great mystery" suggests that there is one explanation. There is no evidence that there is one explanation. What is found is that there are all sorts of explanations - one each for the different events proposed to be caused by aliens.

There will ALWAYS be phenomena that will be hard for various people to explain.

And, the UFOlogist community has NO interest AT ALL in identifying and eliminating the cases that have clear explanations. As a group, they hold on to flat out lies like their very status as UFOlogists depended on it - which it does.

It's literally impossible to put an end to this. Hoaxters gotta hoax. And, the hoaxters get PAID!!

 

Both things happened, they were taken off line, and they were put on line, both temporarily.

You are not going to get 'official' reports from military acknowledging anything to do with UFOs because THEY have been suppressing anything and everything to do with UFOs for a long time. They sure as hell are not going to admit they lost control of nukes to UFOs, not publicly, anyway.

But you will get EX military, to acknowledge it, all over the place.

Who are you going to trust? I know who I'm going to trust insofar as the military.

Also, I believe it made the news wire, so where did they source it? Usually, they'll source a story like this before they publish it.

 

Science does not have to touch something with hands for evidence that something exists.
.
We know when another craft is jamming our targeting system.

We also have radar that shows these craft Faber interacted with moved from at least 60 thousand feet a sea level in a second. You gonna say our radar is useless?


Whether our combat tools provides evidence of a new Russian fighter or some unknown craft made of matter , doesn't matter in so far as evidence is concerned. We don't need to capture a new Russian fighter in order to know it exists by using eyes and combat tools.

But if its a UFO then that evidence doesn't count. I don't understand anyone who demands more evidence when the evidence that shows a Russian fighter interacting with our navy jets is sufficient. But not sufficient if the craft is far beyond our engineering and physics. That makes no sense.

You talk as if all evidence requires being able to touch it. When mostly what is needed is to be able to measure , and you can't measure what does not exist or cannot be detected.

These craft are seen and measured by combat tools and defy our technology. But given they are advanced tech we gotta touch them with hands or there isn't evidence? That's some weird science there!

 

It is proven by evidence that these craft exist. That they are not simple illusions but are of matter.. They interact with intelligence with our aircraft.

Now the problem does involve hoaxers and liars, far too many. Yet it clearly involves our own govt who apparently since the 40s have denied any existence. For reasons easily understood.

You think our govt is gonna admit UFOs have shut down more than one ICBM site? And scare the crap out of our people! Yet officers retired have said it happened to their sites! I doubt they are hoaxers and want to panic us.

It got to the point that if a commercial pilot reported seeing by eyes and radar UFOs he would risk losing his job! As the jap cargo pilot did after reporting a giant UFO while over Alaska..

Only crazy people see UFOs . And crazy folks don't need to transport people nor defend us from enemies with costly jet fighters.

 

The tic tacs have no control surfaces, no visible means of propulsion, no contrails, etc., this has been visually confirmed.

What is your source for Navy knowing the object was not alien? AFAIK, they don't know what it is, or they haven't made any claims about it whatsoever, other than the fact that they are real.

This:

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/201...o-q-and-a-with-navy-pilot-chad-underwood.html
The story of the Tic Tac begins around November 10, 2004, when radar operator Kevin Day first reported seeing odd and slow-moving objects flying in groups of five to ten off of San Clemente Island, west of the San Diego coast. At an elevation of 28,000 feet, moving at a speed of approximately 120 knots (about 138 miles per hour), the clusters were too high to be birds, too slow to be conventional aircraft, and were not traveling on any established flight path, at least according to Day. In a military report made public by KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, another crew member with 17 years of experience on similar cruisers would later observe that the objects “exhibited ballistic-missile characteristics” as they zoomed from 60,000 feet to 50 feet above the Pacific Ocean, alarmingly without producing sonic booms. All told, radar operators with the Princeton spent about two weeks attempting to figure out what the objects were, a process that included having the ship’s radar system shut down and recalibrated to make sure that the mysterious radar returns were not not false positives, or “ghost tracks.”

Eventually, David Fravor, commanding officer of the Black Aces, made visual confirmation of one of the objects midair during a flight-training exercise. An hour later, Underwood made his infrared recording on a second flight. “That day,” Underwood recalls, “Dave Fravor was like, ‘Hey, dude. BOLO.’ Like, be on the lookout for just something weird. I can’t remember the exact terms that he used. I didn’t really think much about it at the time. But once I was able to acquire it on the radar and on the FLIR [forward-looking infrared camera], that’s kind of where things — I wouldn’t say ‘went sideways’ — but things were just different.”
The footage appears to depict what Fravor had identified as a 40-foot-long, white, oblong shape (hence “Tic Tac”), hovering somewhere between 15,000 and 24,000 feet in midair and exhibiting no notable exhaust from conventional propulsion sources, even as it makes a surprising dart leftward in the video’s final moments. Of the three UFO incidents captured by U.S. Navy airmen via infrared gun-camera pods, Underwood’s footage remains unique for its lack of cross talk between the pilots — a fact that has led to some speculation about its authenticity. But “there wasn’t anything on it that was protected,” Underwood’s retired former commanding officer Dave Fravor told Intelligencer. The missing audio, he says, “just didn’t make the copy that was taken from the storage drive.”The thing that stood out to me the most was how erratic it was behaving. And what I mean by “erratic” is that its changes in altitude, air speed, and aspect were just unlike things that I’ve ever encountered before flying against other air targets. It was just behaving in ways that aren’t physically normal. That’s what caught my eye. Because, aircraft, whether they’re manned or unmanned, still have to obey the laws of physics. They have to have some source of lift, some source of propulsion. The Tic Tac was not doing that. It was going from like 50,000 feet to, you know, a hundred feet in like seconds, which is not possible.


So, please explain (the above)?

So.....

I say they are military secret craft, or aliens. Those are the only two ideas that make sense to me.

I've listened to the testimony Mark Mccandlish who speaks of reverse engineered 'alien reproduction vehicles (ARVs) witnessed by a friend of his ( McCandlish is a military air craft artist, worked for the big aircraft companies, his paintings have made many a magazine cover ) and the crafts look like UFOs, and use non-reactionary propulsion ( anti-gravity, or something similar ) but, of course, this friend hasn't come forward, he's in the military, apparently, albeit his story surrounding it is very compelling. If that is true, then the tic tacs are probably secret military 'black project' craft.

 

the gov does keep secrets, and is very good at it. Look how long the F 117 was kept secret. After we blew it with the Manhatten project, this antigravity business is very secret stuff, indeed, they are going to great links to keep it a secret. they are letting people spec that it's aliens, but my thought is that they are ours.

Check out this video, this guy says he's got good info that it's ours.



I'll read the rest of your comment, in a bit.

 

Can the 'plasma' make right angle turns?

But, this guy says it's ours

 

Could what he encountered be an experimental/prototype drone system? The probability to that being the case is far, far higher than the likelihood of it being an 'extra-terrestrial' visitor.

The thing is refusing to accept alleged 'eye witness' testimony or YouTube videos as categorical proof that aliens are regularly visiting Earth and/or interfering in its development is NOT the same thing a denying the possibility that alien civilizations exist. Far from it. It's simply requiring a reasonable standard of proof for the claims being made. Simply put if 'aliens are here' then where is the physical evidence of it?

Bearing in mind every single person on the planet leaves categorical physical proof of their having been at a particular physical location every time they visit it. Walk into a room - you leave a trace. Have physical contact with someone , no matter how minor - you leave a trace. Travel from A to B in using physical transport (car, train plane etc ) - you leave a trace, breath in, breath out - you leave a trace. To date apparently aliens don't do this.

 

I didn't say there were aliens, i asked YOU to explain it.

Aliens would explain it, so would a black project secret craft.

It's one of the two, or it could be both if the black project craft were alien craft reverse engineered, because those are the only real likely explanations.

If you don't think so, you'll need to explain UAPs/UFOs for the five observables (courtesy Louis Elizondo, former AATIP Pentagon official):

1) Anti-gravity lift
Unlike any known aircraft, these objects have been sighted overcoming the earth’s gravity with no visible means of propulsion. They also lack any flight surfaces, such as wings. In the Nimitz incident, witnesses describe the crafts as tubular, shaped like a Tic Tac candy.

2) Sudden and instantaneous acceleration
The objects may accelerate or change direction so quickly that no human pilot could survive the g-forces—they would be crushed. In the Nimitz incident, radar operators say they tracked one of the UFOs as it dropped from the sky at more than 30 times the speed of sound. Black Aces squadron commander David Fravor, the Nimitz-based fighter pilot who was sent to intercept one of the objects, likened its rapid side-to-side movements, later captured on infrared video, to that of a ping-pong ball. Radar operators on the USS Princeton, part of the Nimitz carrier group, tracked the object accelerating from a standing position to traveling 60 miles in a minute—an astounding 3,600 miles an hour. According to manufacturer Boeing, the F/A 18 Super Hornet fighter jet typically currently reaches a maximum speed of Mach 1.6, or about 1,200 miles an hour.

3) Hypersonic velocities without signatures
If an aircraft travels faster than the speed of sound, it typically leaves "signatures," like vapor trails and sonic booms. Many UFO accounts note the lack of such evidence.

4) Low observability, or cloaking
Even when objects are observed, getting a clear and detailed view of them—either through pilot sightings, radar or other means—remains difficult. Witnesses generally only see the glow or haze around them.

5) Trans-medium travel
Some UAP have been seen moving easily in and between different environments, such as space, the earth’s atmosphere and even water. In the Nimitz incident, witnesses described a UFO hovering over a churning "disturbance" just under the ocean's otherwise calm surface, leading to speculation that another craft had entered the water. USS Princeton radar operator Gary Vorhees later confirmed from a Navy sonar operator in the area that day that a craft was moving faster than 70 knots, roughly two times the speed of nuclear subs

As for the 'plasma' explanation, I'll need to see an authoritative analysis of that accounting for the 5 observables, not just a straight and narrow trajectory as a light beam would suggest.

Another question, why are you so resistant to the ALIEN hypothesis? It only seems fantastic or extraordinary because of the narrow limits of human perception, but from the perspective of a member of the greater community of interstellar life, it shouldn't be any more fantastic than a human expedition to Africa.

 

Based on the testimoney of two sources, Aviation artist Mark McCandlish & Air Force Intelligence Specialist Mike Turber I'm now inclined to believe the tic tacs our secret military black project vehicles, and, according to McCandlish ( who explains how he knows it ) the craft are reverse engineered from captured UFOs . (Note: I said 'inclined to believe' of course it's not 'evidence', but it's compelling what they are saying, and their explanations are not made in a vacuum).

 

Pilots have been seeing these craft since post ww2 with extraordinary performance. So what is seen with the tic tac has been around for decades even prior to jets.

But no evidence the creators of these craft have ever talked to us. They seem to just observe us. And navigate our skies.

They could be natural phenomenon that we don't understand...yet. Not ETs.

The universe may be stranger than we know.

There has been trace evidence according to some reports. But far too many liars and jokers in this field. Along with disinformation.

 

The scientific community shares info and research. IMO no way to keep antigravity secret given govt only employs a few scientists and engineers. All scientists would have to be involved in such a conspiracy.

Reverse engineering an anti gravity craft would be like a smart phone being found in 1920 with us trying to reverse engineer it!

I don't buy into us having that power source nor antigravity.

Not only must we create anti gravity but also the power source. Non fossil fuel power and lots of energy.

 

You are conflating 'the scientific community' with the science that is going on at Los Alamos and Area 51, these are black budget, highly secretive operations. These have nothing to do with the 'scientific community' at large, they are well isolated and insulated from the broader community.

There are tons of testimonies by Roswell witnesses who whose lives were threatened, phones tapped, bullied by military and gov personel if they were to 'talk'.

Scientists who work at area 51 and Los Alamos, are sworn to secrecy, sign NDAs. Anyone outside of that small group, are not privy what is going on. We have testimonies of the sons and daughters of Area 51 people, Los Alamos people, who testify that their parents could not tell them what they were doing there. Much as been written about this, read "Witness To Roswell".

yes, the gov is good at keeping it a secret, and they have done a marvelous job of stigmatizing anyone who breaks ranks, look what they did to Bob Lazar.

Watch these videos, they are very interesting

 

Not sure where it was sourced. And not sure it was ever reported in the news of 1975. It would have been a story of great consequence given it involved nuke ICBMs aimed at the USSR.

We may have heard about it years later from people like Salas who witnessed it.. Yet we know Richard Doty gave LMH bogus info and has lied over the years .

I don't trust someone just because they have a DD 214 as lmh does. Having served in the military I knew liars and BS artists. And it started in boot camp!! When in our first week this guy came into our barracks to tell us about all of the shots we had to take in week 4. He dropped his pants to show that his left testicle was swollen to be larger than a soft ball. Telling us the shot in our testicle was a s.o.b. ! We had one fellow to go AWOL that night.

There was no shot in the left testicle. He had a rupture! And as 18 year olds we didn't know difference. Lol.

But we sweated it out dreading the week of immunizations!

 

True, and there is a film that documents this disinformation, it's called 'Mirage Men', it's free on YouTube.

That being said, one does have to be smart about investigating UFOs, for precisely this reason. that doesn't mean, however, one cannot separate the wheat from the chaff. The only difference between the tic tac vidoes and past witnesses of such phenomenon, is that the Navy has officially released the video and declared they are real. (no, the Navy didn't assess what they were, they just acknowled that they are real, whatever they are).

That is a historic first.

 

I do not believe anti gravity and zero point energy can only be known and developed apart from the scientific community. This isn't like developing stealth bombers or fighters. Far from it. This would involve a jump in tech that would require genius's and a collective effort with peered reviewed research. And years of accumulated new scientific knowledge at levels never seen before.

IMO the odds are too great to be impossible given current understanding of physics in regards to creating antigravity and power sources contained in small UFO craft.

Sounds like sci fi to me. Neither do I believe we have a secret space program that sends us to mars and exploration of our solar.system with reverse engineered ET tech.

These black projects are much more mundane using what the scientific community already have knowledge of . But the military applications are done in secret. Like developing stealth tech that isn't magical looking nor needing ETs to figure it out.

The idea of inserting tic tac craft into a navy training exercise is nonsensical. And dangerous perhaps. Plus these high tech craft have been here for at least 70 years. And yet we have never used them in our war mongering? Nor have.we.got rid of.fossil fuels when we have zero point energy? Tin foil hat flat earth thinking.

 

The evidence I'm looking at says otherwise. It is being done. Watch the two videos. Of course, it's not 'evidence', but it's compelling testimony, worth watching. And "Witness To Roswell" book illustrates it, as are the testimonies given by siblings of Area 51 and Los Alamos, Skunk Works, etc.
I do believe it, very much so.

 

Indeed and it signals a big change from denial and ridicule to acknowledgement of the existence of such craft. A bit weird IMO. Inconsistent.

Yet since 2017 there has been little in revelation once admitting these UFOs are real and of matter. , but no speculation of origin. From the navy.Or from msm.

Msm has no problem with other speculation...political speculation stated as fact! Lol

Not that I want speculation. We are covered up with that from the dysfunctional UFO community. Filled with new age nuts and liars. And messiahs like Greer and lmh. Randle once ribbed lmh as being very gullible. At least Randle is one of more critical in ufology , which is quite a contentious circle circus jerk!

 

The question isn't whether there was a phenomenon that is so far unexplained. The question is whether aliens did it.

That's not answered by not having a answer. You cant say that since there is no explanation it must be aliens.

I don't accept your comment about getting testimony from those who have left the military. Those who have high levels of security are not free to tell all. For example, remember that military officials who write books must have those books vetted by the Pentagon to ensure that no classified information is divulged.

You're still trying to support the claim that if it isn't explained, it MUST be aliens.

And, that's just plain unacceptable logic.

 

What I can or can not explain is absolutely and totally irrelevant.

I've pointed this out before.

Again, this isn't relevant to the question of whether there are aliens visiting Earth.

That is, whether or not there is an explanation for these various events is relevant only in that someone either has or doesn't have an answer that is supported by evidence. So far, we have plenty of cases where something happened and we DON'T know the cause. But, that isn't evidence of aliens.

I'd point out that science runs into this ALL THE TIME. This is NOT a new issue.

Not knowing something doesn't confer the right to make up answers.

No, I absoltuely do not need to prove an Earthly cause for these.

The burden is NOT on me to prove there are no aliens.

The burden is NOT on me to find and divulge military weapons progress.

Beyond that, I've pointed to those who have debunked or provided perfectly rational explanations for several of your claims - the ones about speed, the ones about not having a means of excelleration, the fact that the military is known to be working on weapons that will create plasmas in the atmosphere that will confuse detection methodologies.

So far ALL you have are some reported phenomena for which you dont have an explanation.

And, given the number of cases where I have pointed to those who have debunked what you have posted, I strongly question whether you are even SLIGHTLY interested in identifying the large quantity of schlock that absolutel does exist - INCLUDING what has been coming from military sources.

Again, what we do not know is NOT evience of aliens.

When we don't know something, it is not permission to make up answers. You can bring up all the questions you want. That's obviously OK. But, that doesn't give you permission to make up answers.

 

Yes - it is not evidence.

But, you can't have it both ways.

Those vids may be highly entertaining sci fi, but they are simply selling you on something. They are doing no legitimate investigation or even handed presentation - purposefully ignoring the military claims, the science, and other approaches that debunk what they sell.

Do they talk about military advances in weaponry such as the ability to create plasmas in the air for the PURPOSE of deluding radar operators, fighter jet targeting systems, ground observations, etc.?

Of course not. And, nobody in the military is going to divulge US miliary weapons systems progress or testing. So, will you know what these systems are fully capable of doing? Absolutely not, if the DoD has ANYTHING to say about it. In fact, the DoD is likely to claim successes that they have found to be unachievable as useful disinformation.

These phenomena are not evidence of aliens. They are phenomena for which those on this board do not necessarily have a ready explanation.

 

That's the catch. The lack of evidence. I have heard many compelling lies and make believe in my long life. So you don't have evidence you just believe what other people say. Separating the wheat from the chaff is difficult. Yet I believe what Marcel said on that video. It was not a balloon. He thinks its from off earth. And given the nature of the materials he examined and that we don't have that tin foil thin metal that could not be bent or dented with a hammer even today is telling.

Just like I believe commander Fraber. And the jap cargo pilot seeing a huge craft over Alaska. And a multitude of other pilot interactions with these magical performing craft. As I believe the various cops who chased a black UFO in and out of towns that floated with no sound . If it was ours it has never been seen in middle east invasions.

Then the astronaught who was on base when a military film crew filmed a classic saucer landing on base and then taking off! He contacted DC. , and was told a courier would pick up the film, which he did. But not before the officer looked at the film to see the UFO. Can't recall which astronaut it was.

I also believe Col. Halt and what he said about the bentwaters UFO as he recorded what he saw above that base..

But most accounts are too sci fi to believe and they involve no named sources. Great cover for lies and fantasy. And suspect. Impossible to verify. And most.accounts about aliens always involve unnamed sources! And many of these always worked in Intel. Or so they claim. Lol.

IMO the real early whistle blowers are more.credible than what we see today.

Like marcell who showed pieces of wreckage to his son. Or salas at the nuke ICBM site. These men were officers that demanded seriousness in their jobs. And not some drunk E2 that got drafted.

Look at the bentwaters event. You had Halt, and Burroughs, credible men, but also the liar , Larry , and Pennistan who added to and changed his account later on.

So sorting the wheat from the chaff is demanded but many UFO researchers don't or can't do that. Even as much as I once put trust in Dolan, he has become too gullible in some areas as lmh is off the chart! With Greer being too ego filled tooting his own horn to be believable. And these people represent ufology today! Not good IMO and cloud the field up more than is acceptable.