Single issue debate- Positive points only

Yes we are a nation of laws. Immigration is a process that is determined by America, not by the number of people wishing to come here. The present Immigration laws have been in effect for almost 100 years. When My grandparents immigrated here during Teddy Roosevelt's administration, Only my grandfathers could come, they needed to get a job and be employed for 5 years as neither had a sponsor before they could send for their wives.
At the time they came here, there was no social net for them provided by the government. The catholic church did something, but at no cost. Yes they could come here, but if they starved or slept in the streets it was on them.
We now have a society that would not allow that to happen, we have food stamps, subsidised housing, schooling for kids taught by people with masters degrees, in air conditioned schools that provide Breakfast and lunch and bus transportation. These benefits that we provide our most needy citizens cost billions of dollars. Why should our poor be denied more funding that now goes to illegals. Why should 12% of the kids in Cal be illegals/or children of illegals and stretch those resources where there are teachers teaching classrooms of more than 30 kids.

Our bottom rung workers get $8-12 an hour, you don't like it tuff there are thousands of non skilled out there that would take your job. Why should employers raise the salary. pro forces say the economy is booming and they need illegals, but what happens in 3 years when the next slowdown occurs? Illegal immigration helps the elite of this country to the detriment of the poor workers.

If you just say that 10% of our social safety net goes to illegals, to increase the existing benefits to the other leagals na and native poor by 10 percent would make a significant improvement in their lives. Remove 10,000 workers from a pool of 20,000 and wages will increase. This is what Trump is getting at.

If we took 10% of what we saved on removing Illegals from this country we would not only provide more benefits for our poor, we could provide better living conditions for those in Salvador, Honduras, guatemala etc. You give a poor family $10 USD a week you will double thier standard of living there for the same cost that it cost us just to administer the programs we have of the benefits that they receive here.

 

Do you actually believe that Ellis Island was the sole portal to the US after 1880, and there was only one before that as well?

Do you believe that comprehensive legislation to address immigration is needed?

Do you support a national i.d.?

 

Couldn't remember the exact date, about the only people that weren't thoroughly processed in one way or the other were the Chinese and the slaves. By the way Boss Tweed maintained his power Base in NYC largely by parlaying one immigrant group against the other

 

Your ideological perspective is noted.

Most Americans have their opinion as well.

"Overall, do you believe that immigration is good for the country or bad for the country?"

GOOD: 75% / BAD: 14%

http://pollingreport.com/immigration.htm​

 

I appreciate this more productive approach.

Yes, comprehensive immigration policy legislation is needed. It has been ignored for far too long. I suggest building a wall, deporting criminal illegals and those without citizenship, a path to citizenship for law abiding DACA and current illegals.

I do not support a national ID, it should be by state. We should probably have some basic national rules, but states should be allowed to add to that.

P.S. Your parrot wants a free cracker.

 

It was state by state for a long time. Pointing out there were more points of entry with vetting is not helping your position.

 

Immigrants entered the US with and without documentation at various locations - Philadelphia, Baltimore, Galveston, Boston, New Orleans, San Francisco among the legal ports of entry.

Do you support a national identification card?

 

Far from it.

My position is that the US needs comprehensive immigration reform.

 

What Ideological perspective is that? I believe that Immigration is good for the country, I would not be here but for the USA allowing citizens of other nations to come here. I am surprised that only 75% of the people think that immigration is good. We are all here due to it. I think our immigration laws could be loosened- that is not the issue, we are talking about illegal immigration not legal immigration. We can't keep the car running until we get it running. What do you tell the people in Nigeria, Vietnam, Cambodia that want to come here and are waiting for years. The People in central America that are waiting, too bad you should have come here illegally, you are just going to have to wait longer because we are flooded with illegals ?

 

Before the 1870's it was the individual sovereign states who regulated immigration into America.

German immigrants who are the largest ethnic group in America port of entry was usually Philadelphia while the Irish came through Boston.
Australians and immigrants from South America came through San Francisco. English immigrants usually through NYC and eastern and southern European immigrants port of entry was usually Ellis Island.

 

Most Americans do not support the reality-tv entertainer's campaign gimmick of a "big, beautiful wall!" that he repeatedly promised Mexico would pay for. That is why Republicans, in control of both houses of Congress for two years, would not give him the $5.7 billion of US taxpayer dollars he has demanded, and why a divided Congress is now perpetuating that policy.

Identifying, tracking down, apprehending, incarcerating and legally processing over 11 million folks will have to remain on your wish list, unless you want to try the GoFundMe route.

Why should 50 separate bureaucracies be established so that states are burdened with establishing who is an American rather than America?

 

Most Americans want border security. We do not rule by polls. You simply do not want immigration reform, you want amnesty. Word play, nothing more. We already have 50 bureaucracies processing driver's licenses, this is not the huge task you make it out to be. I understand you need it to be that way in order to support your weak position.

 

Those laws are already on the books but are not enforced.

Anytime any administration in the past tried to enforce the immigrations laws that were passed by Congress the usual people always yelled racism.

Usual people being...internationalist socialist, CPUSA, National Council of La Raza, MALDEF, A*N*S*W*E*R*E Coalition, Party for Socialism and Liberation (PLS), organizations who are funded by George Soros Open Society Foundation and a few dozen more.

President Trump is upholding the oath of President that he took and is enforcing the nations laws that are on the books and he's called a racist.

 

As I have continually maintained, comprehensive immigration reform is desperately needed. That is not achieved by fake, crackpot hysterics:

In his battle for a border wall, President Donald Trump has repeatedly told colorful, and at times disturbing, stories to make his case. Two in particular, involving duct tape and prayer rugs, have attracted so much attention administration officials reportedly launched an urgent effort to find evidence to support the president's claims.

But no evidence has been found -- of either migrants using prayer rugs at the border or smugglers using duct tape on women to traffic them -- according to an administration official who spoke to ABC News on the condition of anonymity because the person was not authorized to speak publicly.

It appears Trump's Hollywood movie-style descriptions of human trafficking at the border, at this point, are closer to fiction than fact.

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ct-taped-women-prayer-rugs-at-border.8100706/
​

Trump having children abducted from families, screaming about duct tape, prayer rugs, and insisting that Americans must pay $5.7 billion for his "big, beautiful wall!" that he repeatedly promised Mexico would pay for is not how a comprehensive policy is achieved.

 

Your fake accusation is not conducive to achieving a comprehensive immigration policy.

Were I to reciprocate by stating that you do not want immigration reform, you want families rounded up and, without due process, summarily deported in the millions, it would be as silly.

Wouldn't it?

 

'That was already done during the early 20th Century after conducting the most comprehensive study ever conducted on immigration, the Dillingham Commission.

FYI: The Dillingham Commission were progressives and it was progressives who wrote America's immigration laws from 1900 to 1964.

It worked extremely well before the 1965 immigration act.

If America's immigration laws weren't broken why were the American people lied too and Congress came up with an immigration policy that didn't work in 1965 ?

 

You laid out nothing in the way of policy, just a simple smear job. I can only conclude you had no intentions of a real debate.

 

Can't disagree. Most people don't even know Clinton signed the most recent immigration reform law. That law was drafted by a Republican controlled Congress.

A great challenge to an employer is knowing who is legally allowed to work and who isn't. Employers are bound by laws and regulations to not discriminate in employment. Yet they are also at risk of significant harm to their livelihood, and the livelihood of the people who work for them, if they employ illegals by mistake.

It is because of that risk that I view illegals with such disgust.

They don't care about our laws, they don't care about the employers they rip off, and they don't care about their fellow legal employees who could loose jobs because of their selfish, self centered, actions.

 

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/border-rancher-weve-found-prayer-rugs-out-here-its-unreal

Excerpt:

January 16, 2019 07:32 AM​

LORDSBURG, N.M. — Ranchers and farmers near the U.S.-Mexico border have been finding prayer rugs on their properties in recent months, according to one rancher who asked to remain anonymous for fear of retaliation by cartels who move the individuals.

The mats are pieces of carpet that those of the Muslim faith kneel on as they worship.

"There’s a lot of people coming in not just from Mexico," the rancher said. "People, the general public, just don’t get the terrorist threats of that. That’s what’s really scary. You don’t know what’s coming across. We’ve found prayer rugs out here. It’s unreal. It’s not just Mexican nationals that are coming across."​

 

The best solution to a problem is to avoid it in the first place. If you fail to do that, things get complicated and difficult. This applies to all areas of life; such as hiring a bad roofer or marrying someone incapable of supporting a healthy relationship.

The time and place to control illegal immigration is obviously at the border. It would be done by making it difficult to enter or stay by illegal means in the first place, and the people charged with enforcing that need the strong tools of tools and power to do the job. This is the immune system that blocks the problem before it gets into your body. We cannot know who is a deserving immigrant and who is not unless we have the power to control that flow. Thus- answer one is to learn from our failed past efforts which has allowed 10-20 million illegals to slip by us, and drastically step up the control over borders. This isn't discrimination of any kind- it insures we can do the right things, both for immigrants and Americans.

Since we have failed, as often happens in this country- we attempt to blame somebody else. This focuses on jobs, and we blame the businesses that have hired illegals as the cause of illegals coming in the first place. So now, we want to make business responsible for enforcing the laws we failed to enforce at the border. However, if you ask an illegal applying for a job if they ARE illegal- they are not going to tell you so. They are going to provide you with false Social Security numbers and other things that indicate they are normal citizens. To know, the business must investigate- and in many situations, that is not allowed. In California and many places who fail to see the bigger picture, you can't ask logical questions of an applicant for a job, such as "do you have a criminal record". In some places, you can't even do a background check to find out if the person wanting to rent your apartment poses a threat to your other renters. We need to recognize that enforcement of laws is the duty of law enforcement- not employers and landlords. Keep responsibility where it belongs, and provide the authority and means to law enforcement do the job.

So assuming we are able to stop the continuing illegal entry issue, we still have millions of illegals already here. They are responsible for entering illegally- we are responsible for not enforcing our own laws, and sadly we are now seeing people advocating the elimination of that law enforcement. They don't want the associated crime and problems that comes with unchecked immigration, but they don't want the "unfair" actions of enforcement. That is of course a self-defeating position, and a useless if not outright stupid one.

As to the existing illegal population, I would suggest a new path. A new immigration law directed at those already here illegally.

1. Register as an illegal, within 6 months of the date of the law going into effect.
IF you register, you get the equivalent of a green card, a temporary permit to stay and work.
You provide your background, your origin, date of illegal entry, your fingerprints- your full identity, which will be vetted.
This will apply only to people who were here before the law is even drafted, so that it does not provide a means to use the law to evade border process.

2. IF a registered illegal has a clean record- no criminal history, particularly records for felony or violence and proves to be
contributing citizen, they are given a long-term permit which would includes both work privilege and a path to citizenship.

If you fail the background check or falsify the application, you become subject to immediate deportation, and are permanently barred from citizenship or
entry into the USA in the future for any purpose. Any person failing to register is likewise subject to immediate deportation and permanently barred.

3. Sanctuary becomes clearly illegal under a provision of this law. It is the duty of all law enforcement to cooperate with other agencies.
Local or state officials aiding and abetting the illegal problem are in my opinion- committing crimes by aiding and abetting illegal entry, protecting them
from legal enforcement of the laws. They should be charged accordingly.

This provides a way to first, take control of the border to stop the illegal flow, and Second, to deal with the huge number of illegals already in the country- to give those who are of good character the benefits of citizenship, and to remove those who are not, who shouldn't be here in the first place.

There is nothing in this that is beyond our power to do or is any more expensive than dealing with problems that should never exist in the first place.

 

But what has immigration reform got to do with the illegals in the country already.

 

I can see this as part of a compromise, if you worked fraudulently with forged papers you can stay with your exclusions. You paid income and SS taxes so that certainly counts for something. If you received social safety net benefits, such as food stamps etc then no. You didn't commit fraud because you wanted to work, but wanted something for free. If you worked black market under the table did not pay taxes, then no path to citizenship.

 

The issue isn't whether or not illegals have the right to be here, it's that we don't have the money to deport them all. In order to do so. It would be very expensive to deport all illegals currently in the US, and not just the Mexicans and South Americans who Republicans like to pretend are the ONLY illegals, but all the Europeans and Asians who live in this country illegally as well.

It would be far more cost effective to offer amnesty to any illegals who are otherwise law abiding, especially those who were brought into this country as children.

And we also need to start taking away incentives for illegals to come to this country to begin with....
One of the main reasons they come is because jobs in Mexico suck. American corporations are some of the leading employers in Mexico thanks to outsourcing. How about we pass a law forcing US companies operating oversees to offer foreign workers the same pay and benefits they are required to in the US. We basically ban US companies from owning sweatshops.
We would also need to adjust free trade agreements to include a requirement that the countries allow the US to inspect all American-owned factories located in their countries to ensure that US companies are not running sweatshops.
Another major issue is that there are hundreds of thousands of employers more than willing to bring illegals into this country for cheap labor. We need to make it a felony to hire an illegal immigrant under the table.

 

I actually agree mostly...get work VISA'S (not just farm labor) good for ninety days, do it a couple or three times. If you can keep your nose clean and demonstrate the ability to learn or speak basic English*, you get to earn points toward a green card. Then, if you stay on the straight and narrow and show that you're being a positive contributing member of society, then you earn a chance to get in line for naturalization.
Quotas: We have to have them because we can't help everybody, but we can help who we help.
Tie it to Real ID ID cards and driver's licenses, which ARE de facto "national ID" already.
It's almost like a modern day Ellis Island, which in its own time worked rather well, too.

REFUGEES: Again, we have to have quotas because we cannot help everyone but we CAN help who we choose to help. It must be family oriented. We can help FAMILIES.
But we can't help all of them. You get processed, you get a court date.
If you fail to show up, you're outta here and you can't come back unless you have a damn good reason for not showing up, then you get ONE chance to fix it.
(You also must try to learn at least a little bit of basic English*)

*Exceptions made on English for elderly arrivals.

NOTE: I am a liberal, and I approve this message.

 

RealID is a de facto national ID card, it doesn't matter if it's federal or state, it is still federally compliant.
There's only one or maybe two states which still aren't in compliance with RealID and those folks are going to have difficulty with a lot of stuff very soon, including but not limited to air travel.