Virginia-Based Imam Sulaiman Jalloh: Allah Willing, America Will Be a Muslim Nation

Who can do WHAT???

 

No one can 'demand' anyone to live under the teachings of Jesus Christ they can only encourage it. Demanding is what Muslims do.
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Actually its called the Protestant reformation and they didn't use secular ideas and instead used the text of the bible to demonstrate the illegitimacy of the divine rule of the Catholic Church. Such as
John Lockes "The Reasonableness of Christianity As Delivered in the Scriptures". In colonial America where the bible was the # one seller in the printed medium until Thomas Paine wrote his Pamphlet "Common Sense" where he used the text of the bible to demonstrate the illegitimacy of the divine rule of monarchs and the legitimacy of government, of, by and for the people.

 

The protestant reformation had the text of the bible to use to RETURN Christianity to the teachings of the bible and away from the inventions of the catholic church. Unfortunately just as we see the same reformation occurring in Islam. The likes of Al Qaeda, ISIS, the Muslim brotherhood use the text of the Koran to return Islam to the teachings of the Koran which includes the divine rule of the Islamic Caliphate applying Islamic doctrine as law, and to demonstrate the illegitimacy of any other form of government or man made law.

 

And the Bibles were written in Latin. The invention of the printing press, widespread translation and printing of bibles, the spread of literacy and you get the Protestant reformation, returning Christianity to the text of the bible and away from the inventions of the catholic church.

 

I prefer modern Muslim fashion by Versace with the latest in modern textile technologies!

 

Which was completely a theocracy, and was reformed as the religion was reformed, and then further reformed away from religion, by better, secular ideas.

Again...making my point.

You're just not going to to around this, no matter how hard you try. All of history and all the facts are on my side. The more you attempt to change the subject, the more you make my point, as it is true in all subjects. Eventually, you are going to have to come face to face with the fact that Islam is in dire need of reformation away from the evil ideas in its religious texts, or just give up and tap out.

 

And they chose those texts over worse texts precisely because of reform brought on by better, secular ideas.

Again...making my point.

You guys are not going to equivocate your way out of this, sorry.

 

100% wrong. We disbanded the Iraqi army completely. No leaders and no grunts. That was the source of ISIS's army. No more secular rule of law, no more secular code of order. And what was left for them? Evil Islamic ideas.

Again....making my point.

 

It's true that individual colonies had religious government. In some, taxes went directly to the majority religion.

But, you can't claim that the secular government of the US popped out as an original idea in the USA. Western government was becoming secular before the colonies existed. The persecution of adherents to minority religions in Europe wasn't all from the government. Religious organizations did what they could to dominate and exclude.

Our very first government operated under our constitution (before most of the amendments, obviously) and was secular from the start. Our founders knew the difference.

To claim that secular government came gradually you need to include starting points well back in European history. Perhaps from the reduction of the Holy Roman Empire forward.

 

I'm not claiming that. I am claiming that even theocracies were reformed away from bad religious ideas by secular ideas, like classical liberalism and scientific enlightenment. I would even say this about Muslim theocracies. But clearly they are way behind, in this respect.

 

I assume that by "evil Islamic ideas" you mean ISIS.

However, ISIS killed Sunnis as well as Shia. They were a small but virulent minority hated by Iraqis of both major sects.

After a period of transition, Bush put in place a government that was supposed to be secular with officials of both religious sects holding office. But, he chose as leader our point person for "deBaathification" - ensuring a Shia-only government that took up civil war against Sunnis. They still used a secular government framework. They haven't rewritten the constitution that took shape during the Bush years. It just happens that they hate Sunnis!

Of course, they hate ISIS, too, but the vast percent of everyone in Iraq hated ISIS.

 

OK. I'm really not sure where it is that we differ then.

I would say that the ME is behind right now in a number of ways and for a number of reasons - certainly not just religious.

Let's remember that science flourished under Islam during the middle ages while the west moved slowly under Christianity.

 

No, i mean "evil Islamic ideas". ISIS would have held no sway over anyone, if they didn't have those evil ideas in their religious text to use to lord over people. They also would not have committed so many evil acts, if the Islamic texts did not direct them to do so.

So yes, in addition to blaming the people, i am also blaming the ideas. And these evil ideas have behind them divine authority over people's souls, which makes them especially nasty. Oh look...another "just an idea" -- care and fear for one's eternal souls -- that lords over people.

I want to thank you for having a civil conversation on this, even if it think you are tap dancing.

Now, a thought expirement:

Consider a group, or club. Let's call it, the "Kid Scouts". Now, let's say the kid scouts have a handbook. In chapter one, it directs them to torture small animals. In chapter 2, it directs them to punch babies. In chapter 3, it directs them to kill their parents. In chapter 4 , it directs them to kill non-kid scouts, and even kid scouts that aren't faithfully fulfilling the directions in all the chapters.

Now, naturally, the kid scouts torture small animals, punch babies, kill their parents, and kill non-kid scouts and unworthy kid scouts. Of course we should blame them for their actions and punish them.


But what fool would not also point at the handbook and blame the evil ideas in it? At the very least, we would point at those evil parts and say, "Those ideas are evil, you should not take them seriously." And, you have to admit, doing only that is pretty milquetoast and weak, don't you think?


And yet so many people aren't even capable of agreeing this limpwristed objection, whem it comes to islam. And liberals are especially bad about this, as far as I see it.

All of these meek, sheepish people are terrified. Terrified of offending someone; terrified of making a kill list; terrified someone will then apply this criticism to THEIR own religion; terrified their family and friends will abandon them; terrified of prison, or worse; terrified of global strife.

Some of these are, indeed, valid fears for many. But not for all. And i can barely get an honest discussion about this on an anonymous message board.

Ideas can be objectively good or evil, on that we are forced to agree. They also do not have feelings. Only people have feelings (and maybe dogs).

 

Hmm, i would say that , while there are many reasons to speak of, the religion has a hand in all of them.

 

Well, first of all your thought experiment is obvious nonsense. Muslim children are not taught what you propose - not even close. What you proposed is totally opposed to Islam. You're just flat out wrong about that part. There ARE radical sects like ISIS that everyone wants gone - including Muslims. It's MUSLIMS who die at the hands of ISIS, not Christians, because that's the demographic.

What is incredibly weak is to figure that YOUR religion is so important and so right that the problems of the world are all about others not following YOUR religion! I mean, that is just not even slightly rational.

There are a lot of problems in the ME. They stem from many sources.

As for turning down the hate-o-meter, we aren't going to change anything through hate. If you want to change anything, you have to turn down the hate.

Also, Earth is moving toward being the home of 2 Billion Muslims. We're not going to convert them OR kill them. We're going to live with them. That's not a strategy. That's just reality.

So, working to make that religion the enemy is just plain STUPID. We need to be better at identifying problems and picking objectives where we at least have a PRAYER of making progress. Lucky for us, there are LOTS of reasons for turmoil in the ME. For example, we support Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians - a very clear crime that is recognized by the rest of the world, a crime that is counter to ALL we believe as a nation. How does THAT help our message, our direction, our strategy?

Sheepish? Think Nixon to China. He knew there was more opportunity for change if we were working together. You can't call that meek or sheepish. That took guts.

 

You are focusing on the one single dimension that we will not change - their religion.

You won't change their religion any more than they will change yours.

Again, lucky for you, you are wrong. There are many problems that can be reduced.

 

The point is that they are taught objectively evil ideas. And many are worse than torturing small animals, or even punching babies. Come on man, the ideas I chose were for illustration and allegory, and you completely ignored my point.

Oh, it's also Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and Hindus, when they are around. And they are around in the middle east. Nassomuch in the Levant, any longer. And, as it turns out, there is not too much migration or missionary work in Muslim Nations by these religions. And that sure as hell isn't because ISIS kills Muslims. The "non kid scouts" have already been purged, for the most part. So the demographics are even, themselves, due the nastiness that is Islam..

Absurd. I have no religion. Red herring.

And the first thing nixon told them is that we dont approve of their system of government or their economic system. It is possible to both criticize the evil ideas in islam and still trade with muslim countries.

Furthermore, your comments are as ill-liberal as it comes. If those fools get personally offended because i say that their iron age fairy tale has a lot of evil **** in it, and too many people are acting on it....that is THEIR problem, if that offends them. I do not bend for the bigot or the murderer, to appease them.

I could use gentler words, but the point would be the same and met with the same resistance....from ALL sides, as you are showing.

 

You expressed your hate. And, that is proof of how much you know about Islam.

You skipped right over the point where many religious were represented in Syria, which has always had a Muslim majority. Now, you blame Islam for the move away from being a plural society!!

Do you really stand behind that kind of argument???

I don't care what you believe. You clearly have major religious biases, involving your acceptance of religion here, yet seeing the problems in the ME as being due to Islam being evil.

Of course! But, I would suggest that directly denigrating their religion is not going to cause progress. Directly denigrating Christianity doesn't work, either. When I talk about same sex marriage, I don't kick off the discussion with an explanation of my deep and abiding hate for anything that is remotely Christian.

If your objective is to increase the level of mutual hate, you're right on track.

If you had any desire whatsoever for movement on some issue, they you're just being stupid.
[/QUOTE]
I could use gentler words, but the point would be the same and met with the same resistance....from ALL sides, as you are showing.[/QUOTE]
Again, there are a lot of sources that hold responsibility for problems in the ME. (That's true for Detroit, too.) Illuminating your personal and unjustified hate for Islam is just plain stupid if you are hoping for something positive.

 

No, they chose the original texts from the bible and rejected the texts that were an invention of the catholic church. And John Lockes
"The reasonableness of Christianity as delivered in the Scriptures"
isn't secular ideas.

 

I suspect he means the verses in the Koran that command the believers to "fight", "kill", "slay" and "smite the necks" of the unbelievers "until.... religion should only be for Allah"

 

Bullshit...



Not only have the psychopaths in Caliph Ibrahim's blood cult massacred Christians, they've massacred Yazidis and ANY other group they deem insufficiently Islamic in their eyes. It doesn't matter if they're Muslim or not. That's how takfirists roll.

 

You're still trying to claim that ISIS represents Islam.

That's a cheap lie.

 

Well, they are fundamentalist. They follow a strict, literal interpretation of the Koran. Id say they more represent Islam than a muslim who doesn't follow the Koran.

 

There was a religious war going on at the time.

Mainstream Islam is not at war. Plus, that was more than 1,500 years ago.