Atheist vs Theist

Discussion in 'Debates & Contests' started by DennisTate, Mar 22, 2017.

  1. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Since matter/energy can neither be created nor destroyed and matter/energy exists therefore the universe has always existed and will always exist in one form or another. We are merely observing the current form of the universe. The concept of a cyclical universe that expands, cools, contracts into a singularity which heats up from the compression and then expands again fits that model. Your fallacy is using the theist assumption that there was "a beginning". There is nothing to support that assumption.
    Obviously you do not understand Einstein's equation that E=MC2. Transforming matter into energy is what you do on a regular basis. You consume matter in the form of food and convert it into energy in order to breathe, pump blood around your body, move your muscles, think, etc, etc. You breathe out carbon dioxide that plants convert into carbon using the energy of the sun in a process called photosynthesis. That is another example of E=MC2.
    Asimov had a great sense of humor.
    Probably just keep on looking. Our own planet had no life at all for the first billion or so years. At the rate we are going there might not be any life left on it after we wipe ourselves out.
    Ad homs because you can't handle the arguments that Grumblenuts was making? :eek:

    FTR Newton refused to preach, even though he was an ordained minister, for fear of being discovered to be an atheist.
     
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  2. xwsmithx

    xwsmithx Well-Known Member

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    That is incorrect. Matter consumed by the body continues to be matter. Energy expended continues to be energy. The only time E=MC^2 comes into play is in nuclear reactions, when matter is transformed directly into energy, a massive amount of energy. Here's a graphic describing photosynthesis as it relates to the conservation of matter and energy: https://prezi.com/jy5yykh9u9ey/photosynthesis-and-laws-of-conservation-of-matter-and-energy/?webgl=0 I'd say if you can't understand science, it's no wonder you don't understand politics, but way too many scientists don't understand politics, either, or else they wouldn't be liberals.
     
  3. delade

    delade Well-Known Member

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    So often do persons think of God as 'an intelligent Being that could' do whatever; and so forth.

    Is this something like a genie that comes out of a bottle and grants 'whatever' to the owner of the bottle?

    Or is God a 'Being' that SHOULD keep Law and Order in the Places 'HE' is God over?

    Let me rephrase the idea..

    Would you or any other and every other person(s) be okay and accepting IF GOD did take 'Rule' Over the Chaotic World to 'do whatever He wanted'?

    Because if He did, there might not be any questions such as 'Where should the public money be spent in Britain'.

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...ould-public-money-be-spent-in-britain.510173/
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
  4. fifthofnovember

    fifthofnovember Well-Known Member

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    In what way?
     
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  5. fifthofnovember

    fifthofnovember Well-Known Member

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    Where do you get that idea? Not from any legitimate source (and I see you didn't source your claim). You do know that E=MC^2 generates an unbelievably huge number for energy, right? If E=MC^2 had anything to do with photosynthesis, plants would explode with the force of a nuclear weapon. And if you converted food to energy with the formula E=MC^2, YOU would explode with that force. If you still stand by your statement, well...do the math. And show your work.
     
  6. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Here is how Dr. Chaim Tejman explains it......

    http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/gender/g1.htm
     
  7. fifthofnovember

    fifthofnovember Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I don't see contracting as being inherently female, nor do I see expansion as being inherently male. This reasoning reeks of confirmation bias.
     
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  8. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Possibly... but it could help to answer this question.......

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...begin-in-matter-or-fundamental-energy.465052/

    Where did Intelligence begin, in matter or fundamental energy?

    ....
     
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  9. fifthofnovember

    fifthofnovember Well-Known Member

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    Well, I'm agnostic, so I'm not trying to say that you're wrong necessarily; I just remain unconvinced. Your theory seems to me about as valid as most theories that I wouldn't reject out of hand (although I think one might get carried away with the idea and start seeing "confirmation" everywhere). But there are still a good number of those unrejected theories out there, and this one doesn't seem any more likely to me than Big Bounce, or that our universe was created from the ejection point of a black hole in a parallel universe (I like both these theories, as they maintain conservation of matter/energy). And in fact there may be overlap there between your theory and others.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
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  10. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Yes.... I can think of a few ways that to my thinking confirm parts of this theory.

    For example... the most ancient Intelligence... should ... i would tend to think......
    be the most emotionally connected to the various life forms that have been created.........
    and a much younger intelligence.. would tend to be less emotionally connected to
    "others / Others."


    https://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/experiences/mellen-thomas-benedict.html#a05
    A younger intelligence / Intelligence.....
    would be more likely to begin a rather destructive war........

    The following information could perhaps be useful in getting even a Theist to
    take Gap Theory more seriously...... and move away from Young Earth.

    https://www.near-death.com/science/articles/richard-eby-and-secomd-coming-of-christ.html
     
  11. a better world

    a better world Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't it be more reasonable to propose a creator Deity that has existed forever (not "something like eternity"), rather than a "God" that has evolved within the confines of space/time and energy/matter of this universe. ("My Kingdom is not of this world" said a remarkable man 2000 years ago).

    That is, a consciousness existing before and beyond this universe.

    In any case, I personally I think the Atheism v. Theism debate is redundant.

    The important thing is: we all love being alive (most of the time) because through consciousness we can perceive joy.

    How consciousness evolved in this universe (only on this planet?, several billion years after the Big Bang?) is a matter for scientific discovery, but I am sure even Richard Dawkins is a believer, in the terms I outlined above - he certainly regards the universe with "wonder" and "awe", and "joy", as have countless creative artists throughout history.

    As for extant scripture: it is surely the word of men in search of "God", rather than the Word of God itself.

    A message for theologians: if you believe in the Fatherhood of God, you must believe in the Brotherhood of Man...
     
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  12. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I am actually proposing both.........
    an infinitely ancient Ancient of Days the Father who Messiah Yeshua -Jesus stated was greater than him........
    and was actually doing the miracles........
    and an infinitely ancient Ancient of Days the Mother who near death experiencer Christian Andreason
    felt was The Holy Spirit / The Holy Ghost.

    My impression is that the Ancient of Days the Father and the Ancient of Days the Mother soon had 14 Elohim.......
    the seven spirits of G-d......
    seven male and seven female.......
    these would be the Elohim who spoke the words.....

    Genesis 1:26 ¶And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

    I had to word it the way that I did in order to help an Atheist or Agnostic to take one step.........
    one small step toward Theism.........
    that is founded on a Theistic Evoutionary Theory......
    with an Ancient of Days the Father and an Ancient of Days the Mother who learned and got better and better and better at
    creating over infinite time in the past...........

    ..... and I wish to combine this with the idea put forward by a near death experiencer that every human on earth......
    at conception.....
    is given an over soul.... that is connected to G-d.......
    she was shown that the most ancient part of our soul.....
    was a member of the Elohim.........

    http://www.politicalforum.com/index...reason-is-he-onto-something-important.401732/
    The Man on the Throne by Christian Andreason.... is he onto something important?
     
  13. Daggdag

    Daggdag Well-Known Member

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    People who claim that atheists don't make the claim that god's non-existance is a fact should probably speak for themselves. In fact there are plenty of atheists who openly and publically claim it as such. Bill Maher is one such person. He not only claims that it is a fact that god doesn't exists, he calls anyone who disagrees with him stupid and ignorant, and when he is asked to prove his claims, he changes the subject.
     
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  14. DennisTate

    DennisTate Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Thank you for this hint......
    maybe I should take a look for his contact details.....
    to see if he is up for a debate on Theistic Evolutionary Theory
    that could be founded on from the Dr. Chaim Henry Tejman theories.
     
  15. Ned Lud

    Ned Lud Banned

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    Strange to characterise one's view of the world in such archaic terms!
     
  16. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    Evidence for God.

    1. Human angst
    There is no naturalistic explanation for this. It does not aid in our survival, or improve the species in any way. It is common throughout the human experience, traversing time, race, religion, and culture. It is a gnawing 'something' in man that hints and implies a spiritual connection.

    2. Universal Morality
    IF.. there is a God, one might expect a Standard.. an innate moral sense, that transcends time, race, religious beliefs, culture, and region. At least 'Goddidit!', is a plausible explanation for the morality we observe in the human animal.

    IF.. there is no God, and morality only comes by instinct or human construct, we would not expect to see a common thread of absolute morality in the human experience. Morality would evolve locally, with the environmental pressures of the region, or be mandated by the powerful, with only whimsy or expediency to drive them.

    3. Human consensus
    Truth is not a democratic process. Truth is true, whether we believe it, know it, understand it, or not. But in the sphere of the human experience, a belief in a spiritual, metaphysical realm is a constant, across lines of time, region, culture, race, and religion. There may be different perceptions, as described by the old poem, 'The Blind Men and the Elephant,' but the reality of the Elephant is not in question.

    For all of human history, there are too many instances of interaction with a spiritual dimension to dismiss. People from every time and region have testified to an encounter with 'something,' whether they defined it dogmatically or not.

    4. Foxhole Atheists
    In any time of war or danger, the old saying, 'There are no atheists in foxholes,' rings true. No matter how steely the mind, or the conviction of skepticism, in a crisis, humans revert to the default position: They cry out to God for help.

    I see no biological or natural explanation for this phenomenon in humanity, which leaves it as a primal awareness.. a deep seated 'knowing', or at least feeling, that there is a God who can help us, and we involuntarily cry out. This is not a thought out process, but an almost instinctive response in a crisis.

    5. The Universe
    This is probably THE main one that just about everyone considers at some point in their life.

    The majesty, awesomeness, terror, and vastness of the universe fills us, at times, with a sense of worshipful wonder. The naturalistic explanations and beliefs are too far fetched, and are equally fantastic as a Supreme Being.
     
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  17. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    There are very different "local moralities" throughout the world.

    If it was undeniably proven to you that there were no supernatural beings watching over us under whose dominion we exist would you suddenly become an immoral person? You know some super alien race lands here and gives us the answer to the universe and that no there are no "gods" just lots of different forms of life including intelligent life. Is your entire moral belief system based on a fear of a supernatural being and that is the only reason you don't go around murdering people, raping people, stealing from them?

    Do you reject the notion that people who do not believe in supernatural beings can be just a moral and ethical and principled as you?
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
  18. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Complete and utter nonsense as usual.

    There are plenty of anecdotes about theists LOSING their own faith in religion because of what they experienced in foxholes which completely NEGATES this allegation.

    The military not only RECOGNIZES atheists and atheism it even has a symbol to place on the graves of atheists who died in service to our nation.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Then there is the military organization for atheists;

    http://militaryatheists.org/

    The endless fallacies that theists use to justify their beliefs are easily debunked. This was not in the least bit difficult.
     
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  19. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    1. This is a debate.. atheism vs theism are the contrasting beliefs or opinions being examined.
    2. I listed some points i consider to be evidence, for a theistic view of the universe.
    3. Universal Morality is very consistent, throughout the anthropological spectrum.
    4. Minor points of law, belief, and opinion are not the issue, but core beliefs about morality that are consistent in human society.
    5. The motivation for morality out of fear is rebutted by your own post. If you acknowledge that atheists instinctively follow a moral code, without any threat of eternal punishment, why would they do this, if it were not universally common to humanity?
    6. Belief or non belief in God is irrelevant, in recognizing a common moral sense.
    7. My personal success or failures in moral standards are an ad hom fallacy.
    8. Projections and caricatures of my beliefs and/or motivations are straw man fallacies.
     
  20. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Correct this is a debate forum and I asked you three questions in this debate. So again

    If it was undeniably proven to you that there were no supernatural beings watching over us under whose dominion we exist would you suddenly become an immoral person? You know some super alien race lands here and gives us the answer to the universe and that no there are no "gods" just lots of different forms of life including intelligent life. Is your entire moral belief system based on a fear of a supernatural being and that is the only reason you don't go around murdering people, raping people, stealing from them?

    Do you reject the notion that people who do not believe in supernatural beings can be just a moral and ethical and principled as you?

    I'll even add another one

    What moral beliefs do you hold that you believe I as an atheist do not hold?
     
  21. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    Throughout all of human history as we have been better able to accurately document events and explain events your gods appearances disappear. That fact is the is no documented and recorded visit by your god or anyone else's god to our planet. When was the last time he made an appearance and what is the documentation of it?
     
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  22. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    Repeating your straw men does not make them valid. Nor do personal, ad hom deflections.

    My argument is clear in the 'morality' heading:
    Universal morality, felt by everyone, acted upon instinctively, and codified into social law. This is evidence for God.

    You imply this with your 'atheists are moral, too!', argument.

    I am NOT saying atheists are not moral. That is your straw man. I am saying the opposite. They are, and that is evidence for universal morality, which is evidence for God.

    You have to read the opposing post, not just go off on talking points & canned rants that do not apply.
     
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  23. Bluesguy

    Bluesguy Well-Known Member Donor

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    There was no strawman nor ad hom. I asked several salient questions about your stated position. You seem to be claiming that morality is proof gods exist. Well that is belied by the fact that people who do not subscribe to a belief in supernatural beings liking over us are just as moral and ethical as you. If you find that to be an ad him and personal attack on you I can't help you.
    You then try to make the case that because even atheist have moral beliefs that is evidence of a god. Well that is utter nonsense. If everything is evidence of something nothing is evidence of something.
    So I take it you could not come up with any moral beliefs you hold that I as an atheist do not.
     
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  24. usfan

    usfan Banned

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    ..never mind.

    Reasoning does not seem to be the goal, here, so I'll bow out. Thanks anyway.
     
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  25. yasureoktoo

    yasureoktoo Banned

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    This if hardly evidence for any God, especially since some Gods, are not moral, by our standards.

    Now, is he stepped out of a cloud bank, during half time, at the super bowel.
    That is evidence for God.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
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