WSJ: Trump colluding with Ukraine

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Golem, Sep 20, 2019.

  1. Esperance

    Esperance Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    His words exposed Quid Pro Quo / Blackmail / Obstruction / all rolled into one big bragging session.

    And the money trail has been documented. Seems like a guy who the Dems will now feel comfortable nominating...
     
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  2. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Banned Donor

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    What you refuse to acknowledge is Biden was only one voice among many representatives from European governments and the IMF who want Shokin removed due to evidence of corruption.

    Perhaps now would be a good time to dispel some right wing mythology about Biden's role in Shokin's dismissal.

    "The United States and other Western nations had for months called for the ousting of Mr. Shokin, who was widely criticized for turning a blind eye to corrupt practices and for defending the interests of a venal and entrenched elite. He was one of several political figures in Kiev whom reformers and Western diplomats saw as a worrying indicator of a return to past corrupt practices, two years after a revolution that was supposed to put a stop to self-dealing by those in power.

    As the problems festered, Kiev drew increasingly sharp criticism from Western diplomats and leaders. In a visit in December, Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. said corruption was eating Ukraine “like a cancer.” Christine Lagarde, the managing director of the International Monetary Fund, which props up Ukraine financially, said last month that progress was so slow in fighting corruption that “it’s hard to see how the I.M.F.-supported program can continue.”
    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/30/...-balance-as-ukraine-ousts-top-prosecutor.html

    IOW, the US (Biden being the US front man on the issue) was part of a group of western nations who were calling for Shokin to be dismissed. Trumpist's make it sound as though Biden was acting unilaterally.

    "Trump has claimed that Biden in 2016 pressured the Ukrainian government to fire Viktor Shokin, the top Ukrainian prosecutor, because he was investigating a Ukrainian gas producer, Burisma Holdings, that had added Biden’s son Hunter to its board. But it turns out that the investigation had already been shelved when Biden acted and may have even involved a side company, not Burisma. The Ukrainian prosecutor was regarded as a failure, and “Joe Biden’s efforts to oust Shokin were universally praised,” said Anders Aslund, a Swedish economist heavily involved in Eastern European market reforms.

    Moreover, Yuri Lutsenko, a former Ukrainian prosecutor general who succeeded the fired prosecutor, told Bloomberg News that there was no evidence of wrongdoing by Joe or Hunter Biden."

    Fact-checking Trump’s latest claims on Biden and Ukraine
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/09/23/fact-checking-trumps-latest-claims-biden-ukraine/
     
  3. Esperance

    Esperance Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The funds were never held back. Fake News is at play.
     
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  4. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Wrong. Trump has admitted they were held back...there are conflicting stories on why. Also...Trump has just tweeted that the transcripts of his telephone conversation with the new Ukrainian President will be released unclassified and w/o redactions. Now, let's find out what the whistleblower's story was all about and maybe we can move on...in whatever direction that takes us.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2019
  5. ronv

    ronv Well-Known Member

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    Very interesting....
    Nancy is going to hold an impeachment meeting.
    Trump decides to release transcripts.
    Schiff says whistleblower will speak to intel committee.
    Getting interesting.
    Maybe Trump doesn't really want to be impeached.
     
  6. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    I doubt several things that you are taking for granted here. First, what evidence is there that you believe is considerable? The law, and the constitution in this country are entirely against your position here. That you have asserted that a presidential intervention on aid payments might be construed in the fashion that you have indicates that the practice by the DCCC or the DNC or the Congressional Democratic reelection campaign funds being divided out to members as gratitude for their support on other votes indicates that you haven't actually considered the likely outcome of the standard that you are now advocating for. I always say this... be careful what you wish for.
     
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  7. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Watch the timeline carefully. The reports say that the phone call was made approximately a week AFTER the funds were held-up. Presumably, by then, the new Ukrainian President would have been aware of the funding halt and there would have been some discussion of that and the reason for it during the phone conversation. Even if the President was unaware of the hold-up, one could expect Trump to bring it up.
    Also, members of Congress would have been aware of the hold-up of funding they had authorized. Again, according to reports, the reason for holding it up was officially "interagency process" and/or "concerns" by the President on whether or not the money needed to be spent. That would not be his constitutional prerogative. If he objected to the authorization, he could have vetoed the appropriation constitutionally.
    And, finally, "concern" seems to now be defined by the President as "corruption." I suspect the transcript will show that he defines that as "Joe Biden."
    He's laying down the groundwork for a narrative for his base.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2019
  8. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    He colluded! Definitely a high-crime. Plus he commits a new crime just about every day.

    The impeachment hearings will be public. Make sure to listen in. Just listing the crimes that Trump has committed will take several hours. Patriotic Americans expect him to pay for every one of them.
     
  9. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Wait a minute. What are you talking about. Biden is accused of having demanded the company be investigated.

    Biden pressured for the removal of the prosecutor general because he refused to investigate Burisma. A company that was known to be involved in corruption. And that the people of Ukraine demanded be investigated.

    My God! What are you doing here? You don't even know what this is about!
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2019
  10. Lil Mike

    Lil Mike Well-Known Member

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    You don't need to pretend that the DOJ is standing athwart Trump indictments yelling "stop." Every Trump "crime" could be used in impeachment. And now that we have an impeachment inquiry, I say go for it. Load it down with everything you got.
     
  11. jdog

    jdog Banned

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    BULL S**T Biden wanted the prosecutor fired for starting investigations into the Burisma. Biden's son was on the Board of Burisma, being paid $50K a month even though he knew nothing whatsoever about the business they are in. Stop trying to confuse people, the only truthful thing you said is that Burisma was known to be corrupt. Biden's son was being paid to cover up that corruption.
    They then hired a prosecutor that investigated and found no corruption or crimes which is what Biden wanted. He delivered what his son was being paid for.
     
  12. Golem

    Golem Well-Known Member Donor

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    Then this guy must be lying, because nobody has accused him of wanting the prosecutor fired.
    upload_2019-9-24_19-40-55.png

    If there is anything worse than quoting wingnut media taking points it's misquoting wingnut media talking points.

    Dude, this is like the third time you have struck out today. Give it a rest. ... We all know tomorrow you'll be saying exactly the contrary, when you pay more attention to the dopes you listen to on the radio.... Unless.... even they don't know what the accusation against Biden is supposed to be. Which would be beyond hilarious.
     
  13. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    The good news is that Biden is mud, but the bad news is that Warren will be the DNC nominee. I was really looking forward to Biden trying to act like a sane human being for a full year. The problem is that Trump is doing the exact same thing he did last time. He focuses on his closest competition and gets rid of them.
     
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  14. Sandy Shanks

    Sandy Shanks Well-Known Member Donor

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    Trump seemed to welcome impeachment. “I’m leading in the polls. They have no idea how they stop me. The only way they can try is through impeachment. This has never happened to a president before.”

    Well, Trump is right about one thing. As President, he is truly unique. There has never been one like him before.

    When it comes to the polls, it was another example of Trump's truthful hyperbole.

    Recent national polling has shown Trump trailing former vice president Joe Biden and several other Democrats, while polling in several battleground states has not presented a much brighter picture for the president.

    In the meantime, the Republican Senate led by Trump sycophant, Mitch McConnell, may actually be growing a pair.

    Business Insider reports, "The Senate voted unanimously in favor of a resolution on Tuesday calling for a whistleblower complaint involving President Donald Trump to be turned over to congressional intelligence committees.

    "The move is monumental and a rare moment of bipartisanship between Democrats and Republicans in the upper chamber. It also came as House Speaker Nancy Pelosi was expected to announce her support of a formal impeachment inquiry into Trump stemming from the whistleblower's complaint."

    If one were Trump, that would warrant an "uh-oh?"
     
  15. Sandy Shanks

    Sandy Shanks Well-Known Member Donor

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    Sandy Shanks said:

    Acting Director of National Intelligence Maguire has refused to share the whistleblower complaint with Congress as required by law, and the White House Office of Legal Counsel has been involved in efforts to keep it from Congress.

    Sandy Shanks said:

    The President of the United States once again asked a foreign power to interfere in our Presidential election on his behalf, and he withheld military aid to Ukraine to provide an inducement.

    Ordinarily, Trump gets someone else to do his dirty work, and there is no tape, no documentation of his involvement. This time he blabbed, and he did so to the American people.

    Trump used the power of his office to tell the acting DNI to break the law, and he just admitted it. "We’ll make a determination about how to release it."

    Of course, we all know there is no "we" about it. He will decide whether or not to release it.


    Essentially, Trump told the American people he broke the law.

    NBC reports, "Trump said Tuesday he had authorized the release of the "complete, fully declassified and unredacted" transcript of a July phone call he had with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky that is at the center of questions stemming from reports that Trump pressured him to investigate the family of former Vice President Joe Biden."

    Too easy. As of Aug. 5, his 928th day in office, Trump had made 12,019 false or misleading claims, according to the Fact Checker’s database that analyzes, categorizes and tracks every suspect statement the President has uttered. We have gotten to the point where Americans can't believe anything Trump says.

    So, we will get the transcript of a phone call and, according to Trump, it will be unredacted.

    "You will see it was a very friendly and totally appropriate call. No pressure and, unlike Joe Biden and his son, NO quid pro quo!" Trump tweeted.

    I am sure that will be true.

    The Post writes, "The staffer wasn’t privy to Trump’s call with Zelensky directly. But Trump’s conversation with Zelensky fit with other actions that the staffer had observed. It was part of a pattern, in other words, prompting the staffer to file a whistleblower complaint with the Office of the Director of National Intelligence."

    The release of the transcript by the White House isn't likely to appease anyone. Democrats have been demanded that the administration provide the whistleblower complaint to Congress.

    Trump admitted to breaking the law when he ordered the acting DNI to withhold the complaint from the House Intelligence Committee.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2019
  16. Sandy Shanks

    Sandy Shanks Well-Known Member Donor

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    “The final key to the way I promote is bravado, Trump said, explaining truthful hyperbole. "I play to people’s fantasies. People may not always think big themselves, but they can still get very excited by those who do. That’s why a little hyperbole never hurts. People want to believe that something is the biggest and the greatest and the most spectacular. I call it truthful hyperbole. It’s an innocent form of exaggeration—and a very effective form of promotion.”
     
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  17. stone6

    stone6 Well-Known Member Donor

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    Not just Americans. How do you negotiate with a guy you can't trust?
     
  18. hudson1955

    hudson1955 Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The Democrats will not give up on something they started the minute Trump was elected. They will get their plus some. They have disrupted our Government done nothing and should pay the price.
     
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  19. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Oh my! So that's a reason for blackmail?

    Sorry, but we don't play that. Biden admitted to blackmail, and now he needs to go to prison and become a prison bitch.
     
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  20. Belch

    Belch Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, I consider them traitors to the republic, and should be dealt with accordingly. Just line them up and let justice be served.

    I don't see any redeeming characteristics, if I'm honest.
     
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  21. drluggit

    drluggit Well-Known Member

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    The word soup isn't working. The terror you exhibit though.. chills....
     
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  22. Lee Atwater

    Lee Atwater Banned Donor

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    Done nothing? You're aware the House has passed dozens of bills Moscow Mitch McTurtle refuses to bring to the Senate floor for a vote, right?
     
  23. Jestsayin

    Jestsayin Well-Known Member Donor

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    Dream on ronnie. You and the rest of the dems were trolled. BTW, the release of the conversation was announced before Pelosi and the rabid dems stepped up to their fetlocks in ****.
     
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  24. jay runner

    jay runner Well-Known Member

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    Russia! Russia! Russia!
     
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  25. jdog

    jdog Banned

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    Your post shows nothing and you are totally wrong in your interpretation of the facts. You are the one striking out and the liberals are going to pay dearly for this kangaroo court impeachment. Biden had the prosecutor fired for investigating the company his kid was being bribed by.. End of story, but thanks for another opportunity to put that out there. It is important everyone understands this incident.
     
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